1906 W+F Bern Carbine...?

Pete Ebbink · 09-21-2002, 12:19 PM

Interesting 06/24 Bern carbine for sale...on the Internet...

Have not run across one in my readings...have other Forum members ?

Pete ... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

(Photo deleted by P. Ebbink on 9-23-02 at 18:10 hrs.)

lugerholsterrepair · 09-21-2002, 07:24 PM

Pete, Very Nice! No I have not seen one of these lately but then I don't get out much. How much are they asking? Not that I could afford the grip screws off of it! Jerry Burney

Pete Ebbink · 09-21-2002, 07:37 PM

Hello Jerry,

If I recall a bit under $ 9K...

Just was not aware Bern made these...hoping to hear from our Swiss experts...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

lugerholsterrepair · 09-21-2002, 10:50 PM

Pete, Well, That even sounds reasonable to me. If I had $9000.00 to spend on such a great toy.

Now let me say I know nothing about Swiss Lugers except what I read but didn't the Swiss change the configuration of the grip when they started making Lugers? Maybe this is a DWM that is Swiss marked? Just a wild guess, Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 09-21-2002, 11:35 PM

Jerry,
The first Lugers the Swiss made, the 1906 Waffenfabrik Bern (formerly and erroneously called 1924/06 Swiss) was exactly like the 1906 Lugers that DWM produced (except for the snazzy bordered grips). The different grip shape, along with a bunch other changes to simplify production and reduce cost, occurred with the 1929 model.

Without provenance, this carbine falls in the same category as the 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel. Who knows if it is real or not? I have seen no documentation to date that would indicate that a carbine was ever produced by the Swiss. Certainly they had the capability and may well have generated one or two for presentation purposes, but there is no record that I know of that they did so. If one had a DWM carbine and obtained a Waffenfabrik Bern toggle with the same serial number, all that would be needed is to swap out the toggle train and slap on a pair of borderd grips, bingo - a Swiss carbine. Dont know if this carbine has a Swiss cross-in-sunburst on the chamber, but that can be accomplished also. One would have to examine the actual weapon to check out proof marks, match machining marks with a 24/06 Swiss example, etc., etc. to begin to validate the piece. Unless, of course, there is impeccable documentation accompanying the gun.

It is a nice looking piece. Wouldn't mind having it, real or not (but I don't have $9K to spare either!).

Pete Ebbink · 09-22-2002, 01:41 PM

Ron,

I was not aware that a 1906 W+F Bern had a stock lug...(?).

I know the 1906 DWM Swiss lugers had them, but I thought Bern did not have any stock lugs...except for a couple of very early 1929 Bern prototypes...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Ron Wood · 09-22-2002, 03:56 PM

Pete,
The 1906 W+F Bern didn't have a stock lug. That is why I conjectured that the Luger in question might either have been a special production such as a presentation piece, or has been fabricated from a DWM carbine with Swiss features added (e.g. toggle train, grips, etc.)

Pete Ebbink · 09-22-2002, 04:51 PM

Hello Ron,

I agree 100%...

Right or wrong, I too, think it's a lovely piece !!!

I will e-mail the seller to see it the receiver has typical Swiss stampings or not; such as the Federal swiss cross stamp and Vogelsang's stamp...

Will follow-up here on the Forum if I get a reply from the seller...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Ron Wood · 09-22-2002, 05:19 PM

Pete,
If it is a commercial or presentation piece it would not have the Vogelsang inspection stamp.

Pete Ebbink · 09-23-2002, 10:05 PM

Hello Folks,

I received a nice e-mail from the seller of the 1906 W+F Bern carbine; reminding me that all of their Internet photos are copyright protected and the seller's permission is required before "borrowing" any photos from their web site.

I have deleted the photo from my original posting, which started this thread.

For Forum members that missed the original photo posting and would still like to see it for themselves, I have enclosed the web site address below :

http://www.midwestfirearms.com/home.html

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Johnny Peppers · 09-24-2002, 01:00 AM

It's a shame that the buyer wouldn't also be as well protected.

George Anderson · 09-24-2002, 07:10 AM

For those not aware, Midwest Firearms is Ken Kontos. I have had a dealing with him in the past.

aaa · 09-25-2002, 10:26 PM

Is he fair to deal with?

lugerholsterrepair · 09-25-2002, 11:53 PM

Pete, This guy must not be the brightest bulb in the string...I went to find this piece again and your photo was deleted. Why would this fellow turn down free advertising? If I were trying to sell something I would welcome someone's interest and posting of photo's and a link to find it. Especially among 500 plus Luger nuts. Jerry Burney

John Sabato · 09-26-2002, 12:37 AM

I was wondering the same thing Jerry... and the photos on his web site are pretty shallow on detail... and his descriptions leave a lot of quesions unanswered...

As always, if you think about buying anything over the internet from someone you don't know, get the terms in writing, request plenty of photographs, and make sure you can live with the shipping terms and the return policy...

Caveat Emptor (& Caveat Vendor)

Pete Ebbink · 09-26-2002, 01:47 PM

Hello Jerry,

I thought the free exposure on the Forum wouldn't hurt. Mr. Albert Beliard of Imperialarms.com did/does not seem to mind when we "borrow" a photo from his web site to serve to discuss some luger aspects...

I had assumed the swiss carbine seller would not mind as well. But once I heard from him, I thought it best to honor his copyright requirements.

I think we would be obligated to do the same for any seller we heard from who wished not to have their luger photos posted without permission,...Bob Simpson, Ralph Shattuck, Fred Feit, Doug Smith, etc...so I am not affording any one seller some special priviledges...

Hello Johnny,

I think we still can continue to discuss the merits and attributes of this carbine. We merely need to direct Forum members interested in seeing such a piece to the seller's web-site (which I did in my previous posting). I was not trying to protect one particular seller...and I hope the continued discussions here on the Forum will arm a prospective buyer with the info. they need to make a decision...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

ken d · 09-26-2002, 04:51 PM

Midwest has a full page ad in the latest Gun List 11 Oct 02. The Swiss is listed along with many other high dollar lugers.

Ken D

09-21-2002, 12:19 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1906 W+F Bern Carbine...? Interesting 06/24 Bern carbine for sale...on the Internet... Have not run across one in my readings...have other Forum members ? Pete ... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> (Photo deleted by P. Ebbink on 9-23-02 at 18:10 hrs.)

09-21-2002, 07:24 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Pete, Very Nice! No I have not seen one of these lately but then I don't get out much. How much are they asking? Not that I could afford the grip screws off of it! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-21-2002, 10:50 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Pete, Well, That even sounds reasonable to me. If I had $9000.00 to spend on such a great toy. Now let me say I know nothing about Swiss Lugers except what I read but didn't the Swiss change the configuration of the grip when they started making Lugers? Maybe this is a DWM that is Swiss marked? Just a wild guess, Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-21-2002, 11:35 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Jerry, The first Lugers the Swiss made, the 1906 Waffenfabrik Bern (formerly and erroneously called 1924/06 Swiss) was exactly like the 1906 Lugers that DWM produced (except for the snazzy bordered grips). The different grip shape, along with a bunch other changes to simplify production and reduce cost, occurred with the 1929 model. Without provenance, this carbine falls in the same category as the 1902 Swiss Fat Barrel. Who knows if it is real or not? I have seen no documentation to date that would indicate that a carbine was ever produced by the Swiss. Certainly they had the capability and may well have generated one or two for presentation purposes, but there is no record that I know of that they did so. If one had a DWM carbine and obtained a Waffenfabrik Bern toggle with the same serial number, all that would be needed is to swap out the toggle train and slap on a pair of borderd grips, bingo - a Swiss carbine. Dont know if this carbine has a Swiss cross-in-sunburst on the chamber, but that can be accomplished also. One would have to examine the actual weapon to check out proof marks, match machining marks with a 24/06 Swiss example, etc., etc. to begin to validate the piece. Unless, of course, there is impeccable documentation accompanying the gun. It is a nice looking piece. Wouldn't mind having it, real or not (but I don't have $9K to spare either!). __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-22-2002, 03:56 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Pete, The 1906 W+F Bern didn't have a stock lug. That is why I conjectured that the Luger in question might either have been a special production such as a presentation piece, or has been fabricated from a DWM carbine with Swiss features added (e.g. toggle train, grips, etc.) __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-21-2002, 07:37 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jerry, If I recall a bit under $ 9K... Just was not aware Bern made these...hoping to hear from our Swiss experts... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-22-2002, 01:41 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Ron, I was not aware that a 1906 W+F Bern had a stock lug...(?). I know the 1906 DWM Swiss lugers had them, but I thought Bern did not have any stock lugs...except for a couple of very early 1929 Bern prototypes... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-22-2002, 04:51 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Ron, I agree 100%... Right or wrong, I too, think it's a lovely piece !!! I will e-mail the seller to see it the receiver has typical Swiss stampings or not; such as the Federal swiss cross stamp and Vogelsang's stamp... Will follow-up here on the Forum if I get a reply from the seller... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-22-2002, 05:19 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Pete, If it is a commercial or presentation piece it would not have the Vogelsang inspection stamp. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-23-2002, 10:05 PM	#10
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Folks, I received a nice e-mail from the seller of the 1906 W+F Bern carbine; reminding me that all of their Internet photos are copyright protected and the seller's permission is required before "borrowing" any photos from their web site. I have deleted the photo from my original posting, which started this thread. For Forum members that missed the original photo posting and would still like to see it for themselves, I have enclosed the web site address below : http://www.midwestfirearms.com/home.html Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-24-2002, 01:00 AM	#11
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	It's a shame that the buyer wouldn't also be as well protected.

09-24-2002, 07:10 AM	#12
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	For those not aware, Midwest Firearms is Ken Kontos. I have had a dealing with him in the past.

09-25-2002, 10:26 PM	#13
aaa User Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Is he fair to deal with?

09-25-2002, 11:53 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Pete, This guy must not be the brightest bulb in the string...I went to find this piece again and your photo was deleted. Why would this fellow turn down free advertising? If I were trying to sell something I would welcome someone's interest and posting of photo's and a link to find it. Especially among 500 plus Luger nuts. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

09-26-2002, 12:37 AM	#15
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I was wondering the same thing Jerry... and the photos on his web site are pretty shallow on detail... and his descriptions leave a lot of quesions unanswered... As always, if you think about buying anything over the internet from someone you don't know, get the terms in writing, request plenty of photographs, and make sure you can live with the shipping terms and the return policy... Caveat Emptor (& Caveat Vendor) __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-26-2002, 01:47 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jerry, I thought the free exposure on the Forum wouldn't hurt. Mr. Albert Beliard of Imperialarms.com did/does not seem to mind when we "borrow" a photo from his web site to serve to discuss some luger aspects... I had assumed the swiss carbine seller would not mind as well. But once I heard from him, I thought it best to honor his copyright requirements. I think we would be obligated to do the same for any seller we heard from who wished not to have their luger photos posted without permission,...Bob Simpson, Ralph Shattuck, Fred Feit, Doug Smith, etc...so I am not affording any one seller some special priviledges... Hello Johnny, I think we still can continue to discuss the merits and attributes of this carbine. We merely need to direct Forum members interested in seeing such a piece to the seller's web-site (which I did in my previous posting). I was not trying to protect one particular seller...and I hope the continued discussions here on the Forum will arm a prospective buyer with the info. they need to make a decision... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

09-26-2002, 04:51 PM	#17
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Midwest has a full page ad in the latest Gun List 11 Oct 02. The Swiss is listed along with many other high dollar lugers. Ken D