Maybe Time For A Poll...

[Pete Ebbink]

Been thinking about this for a while :

I noticed the continuation of ads in the WTS/WTB Classifieds section for folks looking to change ownership for either "unmarked" luger parts or specially-numbered parts...

The specifically-numbered parts allows for the "forced matching" of luger parts to get a piece back to "all matching"status...

The use of un-marked parts can easily lend itself to modern-day serials being added to re-create another "all matching" piece.

Both are worrisome...(personally the forced matching does not insult me as much as the issue of un-numbered parts...)

Suggest we might want to set up a Poll on the Luger Forum to allow members the chance to voice their opinions if such ads should be allowed to prevail in the Classified section. If the majority of Members vote that such ads should not be allowed, maybe it is time to consider removal of such when they appear...

Here is an example of the poll questions :

Question # 1 :

Should WTS or WTB ads be allowed for posting on the LF for "un-marked" luger parts ?

Yes _____ No _____

Question # 2 :

Should WTS or WTB ads be allowed for posting on the LF for "specially numbered" luger parts ?

Yes _____ No _____

Look forward to what other folks might think on this issue...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John Sabato]

Pete,

My only comment on your questions is: Aren't unnumbered parts perfectly legitimate for some commercial models? If so, how could we be right for the forum to ban ads for them?

Perhaps we just need a properly worded caveat about the boosting of antique firearms...

Anyone else care to comment? All opinions are welcome, but be advised that FLAMES will be extinquished with prejudice by the Administrative power of the delete post button...

[Edward Tinker]

Mr. Ebbink,

I have very mixed feelings on this, as I feel that period parts placed onto a period piece "should" be acceptable. However the "forced" matching to make the gun more valuable goes against my grain, and yet can understand. Lets say I have a nice gun in all matching except for (sorry Orv, there goes that except bit), except for a grip safety. One part got switched years ago. I would want to swap that part for a correct one and would personnaly not feel guilty. Yet I used to own a very mismatched 1940, if I had slowly force matched it, would that be ethical, to me no.

Then it appears to me that if we draw the line and say this is not ethical, or right for this forum, then will we say that only pure guns should appear on the threads? I don't mind and in fact enjoy the bull barrel or wild aspect on a Luger every now and then, but I know several members that appear to frown at other collectors that don't specialize.

So, selling or displaying those kind of items shouldn't appear either? Apples and Oranges I know, but where do you draw the line?

Ed

[wterrell]

Collecting is a communion with one's intergrity and morality. We express our values and character without outside restraint, and set the limitations of our behavior.
No limitations or guidelines will improve the character of a man, so (surprise!) my vote is no restrictions.
Regards,
wes

[Joe KY]

Well said Wes, and I agree.

Joe

[John Sabato]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by wes:
<strong>... so (surprise!) my vote is no restrictions.
Regards,
wes</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I am NOT surprised... and I concur with Wes.

A very wise woman (my wife) once defined integrity for me... she said, "Personal Integrity can be defined as what you do when nobody is looking..."

She has to be wise... she chose me

[Thor]

ACtually I think it is up to John Dunkle, the owner of this forum. A question directly to John might precipitate the answer or accelerate a poll either way.

[Edward Tinker]

Well Thor, if John has "allowed" this to go on, he must not mind? Either that or he is on hiatus?



Ed

[John Sabato]

I have just polled John D. to review this thread. I would predict that he will have no objections to our current classifieds merchadise policy... or a poll for that matter...

but...I agree with Ted that John D. has the final say on forum policy. Contrary to popular opinion... this forum is not a democracy... it is actually run by a 'silent' board of 8 member directors... but the final say on operating policy is the sole prerogative of the system owner.

We shall await John D.'s input...

[Dok]

I'm not a "collector", but I'll weigh in with my opinion anyway, as i think all views should be represented. It was my understanding when we set up the Classifieds years ago, that they really were "public domain", and short of noticing something out and outright illegal, it was pretty much outside the realm of the Luger Forum.

That may have changed, but as I see it, one has to be careful not to become the "Classified Police". If we say we frown on this or that, or this or that should not be presented, then it falls on us to police it. And while none of us would support the enhancing of a mismatched Luger for monetary gain, are we really going to ride herd on everyone's ad to make sure nothing illegal is taking place, and how would that be determined anyway?

If we don't agree with the posting of ads looking for or hawking certain numbered parts, we don't have to respond to those ads. That in itself may be admonishment enough. My vote would be to maintain a "hands off" policy, because folks who want to bend the rules will do so, no matter what you do.

My 2�¢ worth...

Dok

[Ron Wood]

My vote goes with not polling or attempting to control the ads for the reasons well stated by the gentlemen above.

[Navy]

I agree completely with the "no restrictions" policy.
Tom A.

[John Sabato]

Nice to hear from you Dok... with sage advice as always...

while I am at it... in case my feelings have not been made clear... I vote for the status quo.

[Pete Ebbink]

Actually; I find myself in full agreement with Wes and others...no need for censorship in the Classifieds...

Maybe a Poll structured with very specific and pointed questions to "mine" the morals & character of our Membership might be fun and informative...

Such a Poll could contain yes/no questions such as the following and the Poll would need to be totally "confidential and anonymous" so folks would give honest replies...

Some question examples :

1. Do you personally see anything wrong with a "forced-matching" luger ?
Yes _____ No ____

2. Have you, at anytime in your luger collecting, replaced luger parts to inact a forced-match pistol ?
Yes _____ No _____

3. Would you consider selling a luger that you knew (and/or possibly did yourself...) was forced-matched to a buyer and not inform the buyer of the forced-match ?
Yes _____ No _____

4. Do you consider a forced-match luger "historically correct" ?
Yes _____ No _____

5. Do you consider a forced-match luger a "messed with" piece ?
Yes _____ No _____

6. Do you personally buy un-marked luger parts ?
Yes _____ No _____

7. Do you personally sell un-marked luger parts ?
Yes _____ No _____

8. Have you, in your collecting career, placed "new" serial numbers on a previously un-marked luger part.
Yes _____ No _____

9. Would you consider owning or do you own a luger in your collection that is all matching except for 1 or 2 un-marked parts ?
Yes _____ No _____

9. Do you consider a luger with an un-marked part still a collector piece ?
Yes _____ No _____

10. Do you consider a luger with an un-marked part merely a shooter piece ?
Yes _____ No _____

11. If you sold a luger that you know to contain a "newly numbered" un-marked part, would you inform the buyer of this condition ?
Yes _____ No _____

12. You have a luger that has a missing or broken small part. You secure an un-marked replacement. Would you place the piece on the gun in its un-marked condition ?
Yes _____ No _____

13. You have a luger that has a missing or broken small part. You secure an un-marked replacement. Would you add "new" serial numbers on the part before you placed it on the pistol ?
Yes _____ No _____

Any other questions...that other members might think of...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

[John D.]

Pete - first - I got'ta ask.. Do you lie in bed at night thinking about this stuff???!!!

Seriously - Wes, DOK, Tom have it right. If there is a "dispute" that occurs within the classifieds - and for some stupid reason, this site were "liable" - it's my "ass"ets which pay for the costs.

However - for that - there isn't even a slim chance that the Classifieds are going to be "patrolled" by pre-qualification of use (either parts nor accessories). If I do that - what happens if someone buys a Luger that isn't right? Aren't I "more" liable, as Iâ??ve set a site precedence for â??Policingâ?�? And who exactly is going to do the pre-qualification of the ad? Hmmmmâ?¦â?¦

So - should I "police" ANY ads?? Nope.... However - if a seller or buyer doesn't live up to an agreement - then I can police them, by removing them from either the Classifieds or the site.

Let's be honest - crooks are crooks and you aren't going to change them. That doesn't mean that this site should take on the responsibility of determining who is posting for what - and determining for what reason. If the LugerForum becomes the eBay of the gun world - then I might worry (but I doubt it). In fact - some firearms discussion Forums don't even have classifieds (1911 Forum, for example), as the owner is concerned with liability.

In the meantime...

DOK - WHERE THE HECK HAVE YOU BEEN????!!!!!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

[panda]

Hello everybody,

I don't think anyone can say what his neighbour should or shouldn't buy. If people want to buy a patchwork or a rework or a copy or whatever else, I think it's fundamentally their business.

However, I don't think it's OK when someone sells an item as something which it isn't. To me this amounts to a fraud and should not be tolerated even though frauds are not so unusual among collecting items (not just guns). My wild guess is that many of us have bought at least one item and found out later they'd been misled by the seller (keeping essential information silent or even telling lies). Many consider this as being part of the collector's learning process. Even though this may unfortunately be true, I don't think it makes it any less unacceptable as it still amounts to a fraud!

The good thing with this forum is that people with different backgrounds and experiences on lugers meet and confront and share their views which makes it very interesting for the experienced luger friends as well as for the beginners who find a convenient way to get to information (at least I did). Because of the overall high quality of the information found in this forum (OK you may find some nonsense here and there but it never gets through without being criticised :-) ), it could give the less experienced luger friends some kind of (maybe unfounded) confidence as to the seriousness of the ads. I've though not heard that fraudulent ads have gone through this forum.

The way a forum should be run is basically the owner's business as mentioned above. I nevertheless think it would be a shame to allow a high quality forum like the LF shelter fraudulent ads and use the LF reputation for that purpose.

Now how do you tell an ad is not serious? Practically, it seems very difficult to filter them out.

Then again, a fraudulent ad is only as effective as it finds a victim. Why should we let the LF members become victims? Instead of trying to work on individual ads, it may be worth to provide specific general information on this very issue and open a new section on the LF in which members can talk about bad experiences so that each one of us doesn't have to make the same mistakes with the same crooks or be fooled by the same tricks. In other words: shift from the learning by trial and error to the learning from errors made by others.

Just my opinion.

What do you think John?

[Vlim]

Hi,

Defining a list of reliable sources is just about as far as you can go. We use the same system in our classic car clubs. We will not post any lists of unreliable sources, just remove people from the reliable list when they turn out not to live up to the expectations, or when doubt occurs.

Of course it's difficult to define a 'reliability factor'. Imho the most important factor is the willingness of the seller to offer a money-back guarantee when the object sold doesn't meet expectations. Another factor is more difficult, it relies on the willingness of the seller to act in an honest, responsible (to the collecting community) way.

[panda]

If you can do lists of crooks and honest dealers without getting into trade libel issues, it would be great for grading the professional dealers.

Nevertheless, there are also other aspects that are worth discussing, for example how to assess an item, what to be careful about, prices, etc...

I'm sure some of the LF members (not me :-) ) have great experience in dealing with collector guns and could provide an input of great value to less experienced members (like me :-) ).

[Dok]

Thanks John & John for the high sign... I must admit I've been a bit distracted this past year, but I log on occasionaly and just lurk.... Not being a collector (just an owner, shooter and lover) limits my input, but I enjoy reading the posts. And I always read the Admin alerts!!!

Mostly my Custom Luger Case work is keeping me really busy, plus I have started doing cases for M1911s now also, so I have tons of orders, so most of my free time goes to that. Great to see you are all still "gnawing on the bone"... That's a very good sign.

All the best....

Dok

PS: And Dunkle... when are you coming to visit... gonna stop asking soon... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Thor]

Always miss my friend the Doktor! GREAT CUSTOM CASES!!! Howdy Dok!