What shall I do with my 1916 Navy (besides selling it to you :)

[mishima]

Hi all, thnx for this nice place
I'm in france, and inherited from my deceased Dad a 1916 Navy with original holster and tool.

Here is the few questions i face now, just to make sure > the gun is not for sale

My dad received it as a gift from a friend in the 60's and NEVER took care of it. It got rust dots on the barrel and most visible metal parts have small rust dots on it. The gun has not be demilitarized (should be by the french laws ) as the whole system seems to work and no piece is missing in the firing system. After disasembling it using the nice how to here on this page: I have noticed however that the number 19 flat spring is missing ( extractor pin?). I just reassembled the gun, wiped it with gun oil and tucked it into a gun towel (those pre-impreg towels for guns). It is now stored like this awaiting for a salvation time

Here is my questions:

- How can i save the metal and get rid of this evil rust, making the gun clean again. Does it need to be treated by a professionnal? and where do I find specialists in France? What mistakes should be avoided doing it etc..?
How to avoid it in the future since it is in a countryside house that is a bit humid?

- Where can i find a #19 spring here in France? that would adapt to my model? from internet?

- Assuming the gun is in nice shape again, is it safe to fire rounds (shooting range) to test it?
(could get a few 9mm para from a friend that has one P 08). Do people fire collectible guns or is it insane even to ask the question !

- last question is important> the law says it should be modified so cannot be used anymore (i won't be ble to get a license unless i join a shooting club etc which i don't have the time to do). I'm aware that modifiying (they usually solder the moving parts in the firing system )
this according to the law will make the gun loose much of its magic and worth this is why i would rather avoid it. what is the thoughts on this problem from the people with such laws..?

Thanx in advance for your answers and sorry if i'm hurting feelings !
I'll try to post pics of the gun when i get close to it again.

Mishima /France

[Navy]

Hi Mishima,
You have my deepest sympathy. As your possession of the piece is illegal in France, you have few practical options. One that does spring to mind, however, could be possible if you have a friend or relative in Germany.

Owning such a piece is not illegal in Germany and there are a great many competent gunsmiths who can help you with your rust problem, as well as supplying any missing parts.

As for shooting the piece, if you do so, please, before shooting it, replace all of the serial numbered parts in the toggle train and the grips with new so that should something go amiss, it won't hurt the value of your gun quite so much.

Would be very interested in knowing more about the holster.

Tom A

[John Sabato]

Mishima,

Welcome to the Lugerforum... I agree with Tom A that your options are few...

Please check your private messages by clicking on the link at the top of this page for "My Profile" for one possible legal option.

[Big Norm]

Mishima,
do not worry about hurting our feelings about your situation. Personally, I feel strong sympathy for your concern. We have many British, Canadian and Australian members on this board who are in the same predicament as you are. The above member Tom A is a very good gun person and John Sabato has a lot of good information that he could share with you.

The spring that you mentioned is easily available on Ebay and I doubt that shooting a well built gun such as the Luger would do much damage. The Luger requires ammunition that is a little more powerful than some other ammunition. If you do not get Luger ammunition then the gun will probably jam with the empty cartridge but cause no real damage to the gun.

Your Luger is a highly valued treasure. But the holster is even rarer and equally valuable. Do not put any shoe polish on it or preservatives. Just try to keep it in a cool and dry place.

If the magazine is serial numbered to the gun, then do not try to use that magazine. Additional dents or chipping of that wood bottom will just lower its value as an original match to the gun. Plus the little button on the side that holds down the spring could break very easily thus destroying its value.

I just hope that this helps you in some small way.
Big Norm

[mishima]

Tnx all for your answers,
I wanted not to hurt anyone feelings by saying i might want to fire the gun ( kind of new in this 'collection' branch and didn't know if people kept their weapons behind glass or used them)..
As for ebay, case is closed since France asked ebay to prohibit all collectible and weapons to be seen by french internet users.. It means when I enter ebay and click on weapons or war objects, it gets blank and i get a disclaimer...
I'll have to find the spring from one of the suppliers on the link page on the site here..

I understand the holster is very rare, Leather olds faster than steel. Mine is polished black and seems complete ( the brass cleaning stick is a bit bent thu) and in good shape.As soon as i can get it I'll take pics of the gun, holster and parts (and check all serial numbers etc)and post them here if you like.

About the rust problem, i was wondering the techniques used by the gunsmiths to get the gun to its original state (if still possible). Is it chemical treatment? Less violent ?. my question is i don't want a new gun but a gun that gets close to the shape it was when in the army then.

Thanx again for your answers !

Mish.

Off topic> I also inherited a winchester 44 magnum model 1892 repetition rifle and wondered where i could find info about it. Needless to say this gun is also on the police blacklist ( 12-13 rounds/44 mag ). Won't be able to find ammo anyway.

[Big Norm]

Mishima.
I think that I understand your prediciment with Ebay. Maybe you can trick that site into exposing what you want. The name Luger is a very popular name and people try to tack everything from wristwatches to beer steins to boats on it. Maybe by going into 'favorite searches' you can put in 'luger' and then eliminate items like 'gold', pewter, 'cap', 'wcw', 'wwf', 'plastic' and so forth. You will still get a lot of unwanted stuff but you might be able to trick Ebay down to luger parts. Then you can go through all the unwanted junk and find what you want. Its about entering thru the back door. See what happens.
Big Norm

[John Sabato]

Here is the saved "favorite search" that I use that eliminates most of the garbage using the "Luger" name leaving primarily things associated with the pistol...

luger -(lex, gay, prop, movieprop, cap, toy, wcw, wwf, marble, watch, peter, joe, boat, wrestling, airsoft, DVD, marx)

[Edward Tinker]

Oh, and we suggested this once, but don't know if it works. YOUR computer tells the e-bay servers that you live in France, so you can change your regional choice and say another country?

Something to try, and it would be a chance if the "seller" wanted to still sell to you, as e-bay rules say no. You can also go to the gun auction boards and find parts, and then your best bet is to put a wanted ad right here on the forum!

Ed

[John Sabato]

I think the location is disclosed by the time zone that you select in Windows so that your system clock is correct for your region.

Try setting your computer clock timezone to be Eastern U.S. and use a free email account like hotmail when you register to use eBay... this may allow you to see things on ebay that you can't normally see... Then find yourself a "partner" in the U.S. who will take shipping delivery of the items you bid on and mail them to you... this might work. Please report back an let us know if it does... many of our overseas members would be interested to know as well.

Bon Chance!

[mishima]

Well I've searched a bit and the problem is more complex: its the IP your machine has on the net that localizes it. It means with any given number you can know where the other is located. (there are sniffing software that are designed to locate on a map where IP come from (area only it is precise up to the provider server only. Only the provider can give law inforcement for example the last exact localisation (or hackers when they are good i believe).
Last solution is anonymizers software: software that connect the user to a server that will give out a fake IP to the end server (aka ebay), thus making it impossible to follow the path. Not sure if those work really> need to try! I'll keep you informed for sure!
Thnx
mish

[policeluger]

mishima, you find the item you want and the max bid you are willing too put on it...email me with it, I will bid for you and if you/me win I will ship it too you for the cost of item and shipping only....more then one way too skin this cat. About the rust, I can send you a small sample of a special nickle silver pad I use here in my gun smith business, will not harm any blue but will remove all rust, just use it with a good amount of light oil, let me know.

[Big Norm]

John,
If you enter into the Ebay "favorite search" all the junk you don't want each time you do a search, then you can enter more than the 30 characters. That way you can also enter "hasbro, wwf, lex, plastic, gold, case, erma, gi, water, stein, dies and a few others.
Big Norm

[LuckyLuke]

There are dealers in Germany who stock 08 Parts, some even numbered. Do search about "Waffenteile" or Waffenh�¤ndler". Transarms?

"+08+Teile" also. It should be possible to visit Germany or Switzerland and simply buy the parts peronally.

If somebody checks the gun, remove the firing pin before, and tell them there never was one ...

Clean and lubricate the gun before shooting it.

Have fun! Hermann

[John D.]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by mishima:
<strong>.... I also inherited a winchester 44 magnum model 1892 repetition rifle and wondered where i could find info about it. Needless to say this gun is also on the police blacklist ( 12-13 rounds/44 mag ). Won't be able to find ammo anyway.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Bonjour Mishima

Je pense que votre Winchester est un calibre de .44-40 - pas .44 Mag. Dans 1892 qu'il y avait seulement la "black powder" - avant "smokeless" (je ne suis pas sur des mots exacts pour "gunpowder"? mais je sais que c'est vrai pour le original .44-40) et le calibre de .44-40 etait tres populaire - pour beaucoup des Colts and Winchesters. Le Winchester modele 1892 etaient aussi tres populaires aussi, et si c'est original, (pas une copie de Rossi ou Browning, peut etre, qui fait les .44 Mag, je pense), le Wincester 1892 peut etre tres cher.

Pour le Gendarme - est le .44 Mag le meme de .44-40? Peut-etre une antiquite, oui? Je ne sais pas, exactement.

Aussi - bienvenu au LugerForum!

[mishima]

thnx guys for all this info! I'll take pics of both weapons asap !
And since i'm not too far from switzerlan, might be a good idea to check gunsmiths there
Mish

[mishima]

Hello all!

Here is a few pictures of the Luger, sorry the quality is not very good but all i had was a cheap digital cam with not so many settings!

In order not to make this subject too heavy: here is just links to the pics. I'd love all infos you can give me about this Luger of course... Number is not easy to read on pics, it is 1621, mag number not matching, but rest of the parts seems from this original weapon.

pic 1: Holster before the sadle soap!
pic 2: bottom view
pic 3: number 1621
pic 4: holster bottom view
pic 5: holster maker in Dusseldorf 1915
pic 6: holster top view
pic 7: close up
pic 8: top view

pic 9: close up 2

pic 10: close up 3
<a href="http://swoard.dyndns.org/various/Luger11.jpg" target="_blank">pic 11: overall view ( sorry blurry )</a>

Of course thnx MUCH for any help and knowledge given !

Mish!

[Ron Smith]

Mish, I did'nt see any "severe" rust spots.If it's just surface freckling. Coat it with a good quality gun oil and let it sit for a day or two. Wipe it down with a soft cloth, and coat it again. This will help kill the rust and remove some of it. If there is no pitting. I would leave it as is. As original as possible. A very,very nice heirloom. I am envious.
Ron

[mishima]

I assume what you call heirloom is the leather holster ? Now that it is saddle soaped it looks like new!
Yes as a matter of fact the rust spots are surprizingly almost gone: last time i sprayed the gun with gun oil, and covered it with a clean cotton cloth which was also sprayed with oil. It spent a year in this cloth and when I reopenened it last month most rust was like dyed in the cloth but the gun, after a gentle wipe was almost rustfree( such as on the pics ). I guess all i need now is the number 19 extractor I still haven't taken the time to find, and spare parts I can use to fire the gun and preserve the original ones "in case"!

Mish

[John Sabato]

Mishima,

may I recommend that you not use oils that are applied as an aerosol... they will cause condensation to form because of the release of the propellant and cause the rust that you experienced. I recommend that you use Breakfree CLP for short term storage, or one of the fine rust preventative greases like RIG for long term storage...

[wterrell]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> Last solution is anonymizers software: software that connect the user to a server that will give out a fake IP to the end server (aka ebay), thus making it impossible to follow the path. Not sure if those work really&gt; need to try! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

mishima,

Anonymity software is very effective whenever it is combined with non-transparent/blind proxy IP addresses.

Do not rely upon proxy services offered on the internet unless the proxy server is located in a country which does not have very friendly diplomatic relations with France. (Iran, Vietnam, etc.)

Do not use the JAP software. It is not transparent but has an IDS backdoor by order of the German government, and will sniff communications involving the discussion of firearms or weapons. (And warrants will be served!)

Until you get your proxy set up, cease all communications immediately concerning your handgun, for your ISP contains IDS sniffers and will most certainly report you if you are detected.

Below is a link which will get you started in a search for anonymity and privacy tools.

http://proxyblind.org/free.shtml

Please excuse me, but I must add a postscript. The US government today arrested approx. 100 "spammers". Included in this arrest were many harvesters of proxy IPs (people who do not spam, but simply monitor the internet for proxy IPs). Their computer activity online appears quite similar (electronically) to spammer activity but no emails are distributed by them. A proxy harvester is considered many times more dangerous than a spammer because he provides some of the tools with which terrorists conduct activities undetected.
Beware, if you research the area of anonymity too deeply.