Cast bullet ammo

kidvett · 09-26-2002, 05:42 PM

I got across this batch of reloaded 9mm ammo:
137gr cast SWC, unknown powder & charge weight, mixed brass & O.A.L. of 1.046 average.

I was sure 100% it would JAM on every round but [img]eek.gif[/img] NO jams at all on 40 rounds.

Pistol was a Byf 42 H block

I was shocked!

kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

Artsi · 09-26-2002, 06:04 PM

I've tried cast bullets in P08 but could not get them perform well. Rifling grooves are not deep enough in my barrel, hence I get lead buildup in the barrel.
Did you have a good look at your rifling after you got home?

Proper jacketed stuff performs flawlessly.
To make my shooting cost effective I thesedays use solely copper plated lead bullets. They really are not as good as real jacketed bullets but good enough for plinking.

-Artsi

kidvett · 09-27-2002, 12:59 PM

Hi Artsi,

Shot a couple of jacketed loads after those cast bullets to get the lead out...cleaning was as usual...

I was shocked not to have even ove jam with those cast SWC!
kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

Thor · 09-27-2002, 01:05 PM

I use the same trick as Kidvett, works like a charm

Artsi · 09-27-2002, 01:34 PM

Shooting copper to clean lead is an old trick.

I abandoned it after thinking about it more closely.
We shoot copper jacketed bullet, with a nicely tapered cone shaped nose, into barrel that has soft metal buildup inside. I never had any problems with this but technically thinking it cannot be good thing to do. That nice taper must force lead residue deeper into grooves as bullet passes by. Eventually lead gets scraped off if we shoot many jacketed bullets.

If we'd have a sharp 90 degree corner on the jacketed bullet which would scrape the lead fouling away, that would be more preferable.
Whenever I have shot lead, I have cleaned it with cleaning rod, some steel wool and patience.

Just yesterday I had a word with my gunsmith friend, and this issue came up. He said one customer of his cracked forcing cone/barrel in a handgun just by doing this copper bullet cleanup thing.
It was a Taurus revolver. Customer cracked one barrel, that was replaced under warranty. Second barrel was not covered by warranty. User abuse.
Gunsmith made him a new barrel from Dan Wesson stock. That has withstood uncracked under abuse.

I've sometimes let chemicals do the barrel conditioning. I have no idea under what names this domestic Finnish stuff is sold abroad, over here it's known as 'Forrest' cleaning foam.
I did a search with this brand and some results came up. I hope these are the same stuff I have here. I recommend this stuff. Seems to work just fine.
(Can looks the same, and the funny applicator as well, but rest of the appearance is different from my can)
http://www.ariantrading.com/forrest.htm

More writing at:
http://www.jacksonrifles.com/maintenance.htm

-Artsi

Doubs · 09-27-2002, 03:33 PM

Cleaning lead from a bore takes nothing more than a rod with a jag wrapped to fit the bore tightly with rather coarse steel wool. Antique "Schuten" rifles with barrels of much softer steel than newer guns are often cleaned that way without harm. Steel wool is very soft. To clean the forcing cone, run the rod in from the muzzle and wrap the steel wool around the jag. Pull it back against the forcing cone and then twist it.

Possibly the best cast bullet design for the Luger is Lyman's 356402 mold. It's a truncated cone design and feeds beautifully. It's also VERY accurate in a good gun.

Cast bullets should be sized .001 - .002" over groove diameter of the gun they're to be shot from. A bore to be used for cast bullets should be squeeky clean of all bullet jacket material. Even so, some bores will lead in spite of being as clean as possible. Although the bore may appear to be smooth, it can have roughness that's not obvious to the naked eye. A thorough cleaning with J-B Bore Paste or Bore Bright can help a lot.

The bullet itself can actually be too hard and, if not properly sized above groove diameter, it will not obturate (enlarge from the gas pressures to fill the bore) and that will cause terrible leading.

Trying to push a non-gascheck bullet to maximum velocity can sometimes create leading because the burning powder will melt the bullet base.

A gascheck design bullet will help prevent leading by scraping the bore.

A good lube such as the NRA 50/50 alox/beeswax formula is essential.

I've shot thousands of rounds of cast bullets through a score of pistols and rifles including many Lugers. A Star 30M I owned would become fouled if you whispered the word "lead" around it. A 1916 DWM Luger with a pitted bore consummed cast bullets as if they were candy and didn't lead up. It all "depends" and what "depends" means isn't exactly clear. Follow the tips above and see what your gun does. If you're lucky........

Artsi · 09-27-2002, 03:52 PM

Lead bullets I treid were that .001 to .002 to over the bore dia. Despite that barrel got badly fouled in my P08.

I tried analythic approach and use slower burn rate powder. My attempt was to accelerate bullet over longer timeframe, rather than see it reach peak velocity in the first 1 inch after it has departed from case mouth.
That didn't work either. (I cannot remmeber anymore whether fouling was same or reduced).

Doubs - thanks for a good write up.

-Artsi

Michigan Gunner · 10-06-2002, 07:17 PM

Doubs is right. Cast bullets work fine once the bugs are worked out. Make sure that you start with a clean bore, remove all jacked bullet fouling. Use a bore cleaner like Hoppes Bench Rest for this. I have used lots of lead bullets in a Browning P-35 with good results. Have not tried them in my Luger yet.

I have run thousands of cast bullets through revolvers and lever guns shooting Cowboy Action.
I cast them, lube them with liquid Alox and load them. Simple and works fine.

One other thing. Be careful with unknowen reloads. You just don't know what's in them!

Lock and Load! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

09-26-2002, 05:42 PM	#1
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Cast bullet ammo I got across this batch of reloaded 9mm ammo: 137gr cast SWC, unknown powder & charge weight, mixed brass & O.A.L. of 1.046 average. I was sure 100% it would JAM on every round but [img]eek.gif[/img] NO jams at all on 40 rounds. Pistol was a Byf 42 H block I was shocked! kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

09-26-2002, 06:04 PM	#2
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I've tried cast bullets in P08 but could not get them perform well. Rifling grooves are not deep enough in my barrel, hence I get lead buildup in the barrel. Did you have a good look at your rifling after you got home? Proper jacketed stuff performs flawlessly. To make my shooting cost effective I thesedays use solely copper plated lead bullets. They really are not as good as real jacketed bullets but good enough for plinking. -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-27-2002, 01:05 PM	#4
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	I use the same trick as Kidvett, works like a charm __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email [email protected] ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

09-27-2002, 01:34 PM	#5
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Shooting copper to clean lead is an old trick. I abandoned it after thinking about it more closely. We shoot copper jacketed bullet, with a nicely tapered cone shaped nose, into barrel that has soft metal buildup inside. I never had any problems with this but technically thinking it cannot be good thing to do. That nice taper must force lead residue deeper into grooves as bullet passes by. Eventually lead gets scraped off if we shoot many jacketed bullets. If we'd have a sharp 90 degree corner on the jacketed bullet which would scrape the lead fouling away, that would be more preferable. Whenever I have shot lead, I have cleaned it with cleaning rod, some steel wool and patience. Just yesterday I had a word with my gunsmith friend, and this issue came up. He said one customer of his cracked forcing cone/barrel in a handgun just by doing this copper bullet cleanup thing. It was a Taurus revolver. Customer cracked one barrel, that was replaced under warranty. Second barrel was not covered by warranty. User abuse. Gunsmith made him a new barrel from Dan Wesson stock. That has withstood uncracked under abuse. I've sometimes let chemicals do the barrel conditioning. I have no idea under what names this domestic Finnish stuff is sold abroad, over here it's known as 'Forrest' cleaning foam. I did a search with this brand and some results came up. I hope these are the same stuff I have here. I recommend this stuff. Seems to work just fine. (Can looks the same, and the funny applicator as well, but rest of the appearance is different from my can) http://www.ariantrading.com/forrest.htm More writing at: http://www.jacksonrifles.com/maintenance.htm -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-27-2002, 03:52 PM	#7
Artsi User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 61 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Lead bullets I treid were that .001 to .002 to over the bore dia. Despite that barrel got badly fouled in my P08. I tried analythic approach and use slower burn rate powder. My attempt was to accelerate bullet over longer timeframe, rather than see it reach peak velocity in the first 1 inch after it has departed from case mouth. That didn't work either. (I cannot remmeber anymore whether fouling was same or reduced). Doubs - thanks for a good write up. -Artsi __________________ A golf course is a waste of perfectly good rifle range. (- someone in the net-)

09-27-2002, 12:59 PM	#3
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Artsi, Shot a couple of jacketed loads after those cast bullets to get the lead out...cleaning was as usual... I was shocked not to have even ove jam with those cast SWC! kidvett [img]cool.gif[/img]

09-27-2002, 03:33 PM	#6
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	Cleaning lead from a bore takes nothing more than a rod with a jag wrapped to fit the bore tightly with rather coarse steel wool. Antique "Schuten" rifles with barrels of much softer steel than newer guns are often cleaned that way without harm. Steel wool is very soft. To clean the forcing cone, run the rod in from the muzzle and wrap the steel wool around the jag. Pull it back against the forcing cone and then twist it. Possibly the best cast bullet design for the Luger is Lyman's 356402 mold. It's a truncated cone design and feeds beautifully. It's also VERY accurate in a good gun. Cast bullets should be sized .001 - .002" over groove diameter of the gun they're to be shot from. A bore to be used for cast bullets should be squeeky clean of all bullet jacket material. Even so, some bores will lead in spite of being as clean as possible. Although the bore may appear to be smooth, it can have roughness that's not obvious to the naked eye. A thorough cleaning with J-B Bore Paste or Bore Bright can help a lot. The bullet itself can actually be too hard and, if not properly sized above groove diameter, it will not obturate (enlarge from the gas pressures to fill the bore) and that will cause terrible leading. Trying to push a non-gascheck bullet to maximum velocity can sometimes create leading because the burning powder will melt the bullet base. A gascheck design bullet will help prevent leading by scraping the bore. A good lube such as the NRA 50/50 alox/beeswax formula is essential. I've shot thousands of rounds of cast bullets through a score of pistols and rifles including many Lugers. A Star 30M I owned would become fouled if you whispered the word "lead" around it. A 1916 DWM Luger with a pitted bore consummed cast bullets as if they were candy and didn't lead up. It all "depends" and what "depends" means isn't exactly clear. Follow the tips above and see what your gun does. If you're lucky........

10-06-2002, 07:17 PM	#8
Michigan Gunner User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Michigan, on the border Posts: 75 Thanks: 2 Thanked 15 Times in 9 Posts	Doubs is right. Cast bullets work fine once the bugs are worked out. Make sure that you start with a clean bore, remove all jacked bullet fouling. Use a bore cleaner like Hoppes Bench Rest for this. I have used lots of lead bullets in a Browning P-35 with good results. Have not tried them in my Luger yet. I have run thousands of cast bullets through revolvers and lever guns shooting Cowboy Action. I cast them, lube them with liquid Alox and load them. Simple and works fine. One other thing. Be careful with unknowen reloads. You just don't know what's in them! Lock and Load! [img]biggrin.gif[/img]