need help on 1915 Erfurt(?)

[SeattleXYZ]

Looking for history and approximate value. Photo file attached.

Pistol seems clean and tight with a sharp, shiny bore. No evidence of pitting. S/N is 1605.

Safety lever, takedown lever, and trigger are blued. Does this mean the pistol is reblued? No sign of extensive buffing or polishing.

Not all parts are original. Main substitution is the forward toggle (?). The word "Erfurt" is almost ground away. Old 2 digit S/N is "X'ed" out and "05" stamped in. Is this an armory rebuild?

Barrel registration mark seems original.

Can post more photos if needed. Any information is welcome.

SeattleXYZ

[Dwight Gruber]

SeattleXYZ,

On the face of it, blued small parts on a 1915-dated Luger indicates re-blue. Witness Mark (barrel registration) is not a reliable indicator of originality without close examination, very often not even then.

"Armory rebuild" is a very slippery term. It is applicable to Lugers only under very specific circumstances, usually it is applied by sellers who want to enhance the value of a reblued Luger to an uninformed buyer.

On the other hand, this Luger has very interesting markings. It would be useful to see all of them in as sharp closeup as possible, before anything substantive can be said about it.

--Dwight

[SeattleXYZ]

Dwight,

Thanks for the information. I will take some more photos and try to get them more in focus - difficult with my simple camera. Markings on the bottom of the barrel are faint and probably will not photograph. I will sketch them if I can.

SeattleXYZ

[George Anderson]

Seattle, there are no known examples of a 1915 dated Erfurt so your pistol's either worth a zillion dollars or it is a parts gun, obviously the latter. As to what it is or who did it, I think the answer lays in the strange proof marks on the left side of the barrel extension and the frame. They look like lazy crown/U and something similar to a Prussian eagle.

Some on this forum have a great knowledge of proofs. Perhaps one of our european friends can help. To me, they don't look German.

[drbuster]

The C/U proofs look like early Mauser commercial markings but I don't recall seeing them "lazy". The other marking resembles a Prussian eagle, typical of Imperial military markings. I'm sure we all would like to see more pictures as Dwight has requested.

[Herb]

Seattle, how about a photo of the markings on the right side of the reciever, there should be four of them there.

[Vlim]

Hi,

This configuration points towards a voluntary proofing of the pistol. The 'U' represents 'Untersuchung' (inspection) and is coupled with the eagle or a crown. Germany stopped using it after 1939.

Most probably a military surplus that was fixed and testfired. Remember that officers had to buy their own side-arms and it may just be some cheap surplus pistol that was fixed and sold commercially.

Certainly nobody tried to boost this one

[SeattleXYZ]

More photos. 1 and 2 of 4 photos.





More photos. 3 and 4 of 4

[Dwight Gruber]

Boyoboy, is this an interesting Luger!

The inspection and proof marks on the right receiver are proper for a 1915 DWM Luger, the lack of an artillery sight notch on the receiver front, and the general lack of inspector stamps, confirms that it is a DWM.

Not only is the forward toggle an Erfurt piece, the rear toggle is stamped with an inspector's stamp in the Erfurt style. Its too difficult to see what proof is stamped on the breechblock.

This gun has been rebarrelled, as can be seen by the crown/N and the absence of a serial number. Crown/N is the German commercial proof; the c/N on the barrel, and obliterated Erfurt stamp replaced with a c/N are strong indicators that this gun is a postwar Commercial rework.

The crown/U on the left receiver and frame look like the 1950 East German Suhl inspectors mark (see Costanzo, p. 203). It would be interesting to see a detailed closeup of the eagle, the only mark in Costanzo which appears close is the East German People's Military final proof (ibid., p. 138). There also appears to be the remnants of a starburst around a letter, it is not possible to tell exactly what it is but this may be an East German mark as well.

What is the magazine for this pistol like?

--Dwight

[Vlim]

Hi Dwight,

I doubt that the crown/U proofs are eastern German, as they are mated with a reichseagle on top. The East-Geman crown/U would be applied without a reichs-eagle (for obvious reasons ).

I believe this pistol al leaste saw early (possibly pre-weimar / 1922) voluntary proofing. The Crown/N's may well be East-German and document a much later barrel replacement.

[Lugerdoc]

Didn't anyone notice that the Imperial proofs on the right reciever are upside down? The narrow aspect C/N on the barrel and center toggle link are new DDR replacement parts. The other C/C/U and other proofing are also DDR as is the parts renumbering. Even though a bit ugly, I feel that these fully proofed E.German reworks maybe collectables of the future. Most came with newly numbered matching mags #1 & #2. I sold a similiar one about a year ago for $600 with one matching mag. TH

[Dwight Gruber]

"Didn't anyone notice that the Imperial proofs on the right reciever are upside down?"

Tom, turn the picture rightside-up I'll buy the DDR c/N, but if you look really closely you can see the tops of the Erfurt E and T, and just a bit of the upper-right of the crown on the toggle.

Gerben,

I'd really want to see a good closeup of the eagle before I would confirm this as a Reichs eagle, considering the entry in Costanzo. Also, Costanzo (p.252) shows the 1930/31 lazy c/U with an intermediate crown-top between the actual crown and the U, which the DDR c/U lacks.

No one has any thoughts on the starburst-letter, eh?

I like Lugers like this, they are authentic, different and unique, and tell a long story. To my mind they are definitely collection-worthy.

--Dwight

[Vlim]

Hi Dwight,

To make things more difficult, the East-Germans simply continued to use the methods (and dies) used by the German empire, Weimar republic and early Nazi empire. So it's very difficult to distinguish between pre-1939 German dies and early postwar East-German dies, simply because they were the same.

I agree that these Lugers have a certain fascination.

oh, a photo of the barrel muzzle crown would help. If the crown is somewhat roughly finished, it's a good hint towards a Postwar East-German rework.

[SeattleXYZ]

Dear Dwight, G. van V, and Lugerdoc,

Thanks for all the comments and information. This is really getting interesting.

Answers to questions:

The magazine has an aluminum (?) bottom (not wood), stamped 1605, same as the pistol S/N. On the magazine body just above the base on the left side is stamped 2/1001. The magazine appears almost new. Would pictures be useful?

I will try to make an ultra-close-up of the eagle Dwight mentioned. Is this the marking just above the "61" of the 6105 S/N, or the marking just below?

The swelled portion of the barrel at the muzzle has tooling marks running fore and aft. The rest of the barrel is smoother. The muzzle itself is not polished smooth, but shows circumferential tooling marks. Muzzle interior
is sharp with no signs of cleaning rod wear that I can see.

The markings on the bottom of the barrel are as follows, from the receiver forward:
N, CROWN, RTD, then a series of letters that have been mostly obliterated.
The RTD and the obliterated letters are too faint to photograph. If I knew what to look for, I might be able to see if they are a match for something you would recognize. Lastly, there is 9 MM about 29mm from the muzzle.
All the letters after CROWN are about 1.5mm high.

Question: Does the forward toggle link with the obliterated "Erfurt" appear to be a replacement part? What would be a likely reason for replacing this and the trigger plate if this is a commercial or East German rework?

Thanks again to everyone for the information.

SeattleXYZ

[Dwight Gruber]

SeattleXYZ,

2/1001 is a code found on East German Police magazines. It should be an extruded-steel magazine, I -believe- (although someone may set me straighter on this one) that it is the East German code for Haenel-Schmeisser. The mag bottom, as you recognize, is not aluminum but some alloy--you can see the difference if you compare with a known WWII aluminum-base mag.

You imply, and on a second look it indeed appears, that the eagles on the left side of the gun are different. If you can do it, it would be interesting to see closeups of both of them.

The c/Ns, whether of Weimar or DDR origin, indicate a commercial rework. In Weimar Germany inflation was rampant, and arms manufacturers were forbidden by the Treaty of Versailles to manufacture new weapons (a slight simplification, but adequate for this discussion). Guns for commercial sale, particularly outside of Germany, were a huge source of cash revenues. It was commonplace to rework Lugers and repair them, if necessary, with whatever replacement parts were found at hand. Your Luger seems to be a rather extreme example of this practice. I expect that some others in this discussion may be able to address comparable practices in the DDR in the late-40s/early-50s.

There is a strong possibility that the partially obliterated string of letters is the name of the company which imported this gun into the US--the "import stamp" required by law.

--Dwight

[SeattleXYZ]

Dwight,

I will try to figure a way to get extreme closeups of the eagles. This is all very interesting - a combination of history and a detective story.

Anyone have an idea of who brought East German Lugers to the U.S.?
I bought this one in a local gun shop around 1996, so it has been here at least that long.

SeattleXYZ

[Vlim]

Hi,

Dwight was absolutely right on the 2/1001 mark. The East-Germans adopted a 4-digit 'lieferantnummer' or 'deliverers code' and the Haenel company was known as 1001. Haenel also got the Walther production lines (that ended up on the Eastern-German side) and produced a Walther PP/PPK version for the East-Germans known as the 'Pistole 1001'.

These 2/1001 magazines are identical to the pre-war Haenels, with the exception of the base. This was later made from the casting material also used for small toy cars 'grauguss'. (uncertain about the correct English term for this material ).

East-German lugers were sold in the 60s, 70s and 80s by the East-German government and they ended up everywhere. Some have surfaced in Europe, others in the Middle-East and others in the USA. Just about everybody bought and traded them. Many were dismantled for parts.

[SeattleXYZ]

Dwight,

Here are closer photos of the eagles. Also shows the partial "sunburst"
stamp. Might this be an E. German police mark?

Does this shed any more light on collectibility and value? Thanks.


SeattleXYZ

[Dwight Gruber]

SeattleXYZ,

Reallt excellent closeup photographs. The eagles are unlike anything Costanzo documented for his book. The c/U does look most like the East German Suhl proof. I'd guess you are right on whith your East German Police supposition for the sunburst/letter, but there are people here who can speak authoritatively about this.

Its tough to guess the value of a Luger like this. On the face of it, East German reworks do not bring much more money than any Luger for shooting. There are collectors, however, who hold the opinion that these guns are legitimate variations regardless of their mismatched condition, and think that their value will eventually rise. In this eventuality, I'd say that yours is likely to be in the upper level of collectibility because of the story told by its parts and markings. It is certainly one of the more interesing Lugers around.

--Dwight

[Vlim]

Hi,

I have to go with Dwight on this one. The crown/U/Eagle combo is more like an Eastern-German proof, post-1950. The partial sunburst stamp does fit with that evidence.