Kreigsmarine question

Dwight Gruber · 01-29-2005, 08:46 PM

Saw a 1938 S/42 Luger at the Portland gun show today with N 3675 on the front grip strap. The aluminum-base magazine was not matching, but was marked N 3678 above the weapon serial number.

This gun and its marks appear to be proper as described by Jan Still in "Third Reich Lugers". My question has to do with their application. The Navy marks appear to be applied by pantograph, rather than stamping dies.

My recollection is that the Eagle/M Kriegsmarine marking was pantographed rather than stamped. Is the Unit marking properly found pantographed as well?

--Dwight

Navy · 01-30-2005, 11:09 PM

After taking a sample of 5, all property marks appear to be stamped.

Tom A.

Dwight Gruber · 01-31-2005, 03:26 AM

Tom,

This is very interesting and contradicts Jan Still's answer.

--Dwight

Navy · 01-31-2005, 07:44 AM

Dwight,

The ones I examined in my collection appear to be stamped based on some distortions in the tops/bottoms of the property numbers, particularly the O (Top and bottom) are dramatically different and less clean/deep than the sides, indicating that a more or less flat die was struck against a curved surface. It is my understanding of the pantograph process that the marking would be uniform even on a curved surface.
Of course, I may be completely ill-informed. Wouldn't be the first time.

Tom A.

Dwight Gruber · 01-31-2005, 10:51 AM

Tom,

Not trying to make trouble, you have the examples at hand to examine. I think your conclusion about naked-eye examination and flat die stamping is perfectly correct.

It sounds like you are describing a unit mark which is stamped lentgthwise along the grip strap. The gun I examined Saturday was marked horizontally, on the grip strap's width. The mark was very fine, it was only apperent under some considerable magnification that the lines had the chacteristic "swirl" of a rotary tool. The magazine mark was made the same way.

--Dwight

Navy · 01-31-2005, 12:18 PM

Clearly, if it has the rotary cutting tool marks it was done by pantograph or similar machine. Mine did not appear that way. Will use a highpower loupe tonight to verify.

Tom A

Ron Wood · 01-31-2005, 12:48 PM

A stamped impression usually has nearly squared ends on the letters/numbers. On a pantographed marking, all the lines terminate in a radius. Like Dwight, all the Kriegsmarines I have seen (not many) marked horizontally on the backstrap were pantographed. Unfortunately, that makes them easy to fake.

01-29-2005, 08:46 PM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Kreigsmarine question Saw a 1938 S/42 Luger at the Portland gun show today with N 3675 on the front grip strap. The aluminum-base magazine was not matching, but was marked N 3678 above the weapon serial number. This gun and its marks appear to be proper as described by Jan Still in "Third Reich Lugers". My question has to do with their application. The Navy marks appear to be applied by pantograph, rather than stamping dies. My recollection is that the Eagle/M Kriegsmarine marking was pantographed rather than stamped. Is the Unit marking properly found pantographed as well? --Dwight

01-31-2005, 12:48 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	A stamped impression usually has nearly squared ends on the letters/numbers. On a pantographed marking, all the lines terminate in a radius. Like Dwight, all the Kriegsmarines I have seen (not many) marked horizontally on the backstrap were pantographed. Unfortunately, that makes them easy to fake. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-30-2005, 11:09 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	After taking a sample of 5, all property marks appear to be stamped. Tom A.

01-31-2005, 03:26 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Tom, This is very interesting and contradicts Jan Still's answer. --Dwight

01-31-2005, 07:44 AM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Dwight, The ones I examined in my collection appear to be stamped based on some distortions in the tops/bottoms of the property numbers, particularly the O (Top and bottom) are dramatically different and less clean/deep than the sides, indicating that a more or less flat die was struck against a curved surface. It is my understanding of the pantograph process that the marking would be uniform even on a curved surface. Of course, I may be completely ill-informed. Wouldn't be the first time. Tom A.

01-31-2005, 10:51 AM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Tom, Not trying to make trouble, you have the examples at hand to examine. I think your conclusion about naked-eye examination and flat die stamping is perfectly correct. It sounds like you are describing a unit mark which is stamped lentgthwise along the grip strap. The gun I examined Saturday was marked horizontally, on the grip strap's width. The mark was very fine, it was only apperent under some considerable magnification that the lines had the chacteristic "swirl" of a rotary tool. The magazine mark was made the same way. --Dwight

01-31-2005, 12:18 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Clearly, if it has the rotary cutting tool marks it was done by pantograph or similar machine. Mine did not appear that way. Will use a highpower loupe tonight to verify. Tom A