My New 'P' Code

Big Norm · 08-30-2005, 09:53 PM

I just got myself a new Krieghoff 'P' code. It is a ringer for a 'P' code (ser #P1126) posted earlier under "Private HK on Gun Broker". My serial number is P1259. I have been sitting here comparing the two HK's trying to assure myself that I made a good purchase.

My HK has less wear on the side plate. But the locking bolt has been roughly ground and not polished to make the flat look flat. The strawing is good though. I am surprized to see that there are no serial numbers on the locking bolt, trigger, thumb safety and the rear of the toggle.

The "P" in front of the serial number on the front of the frame is located higher than the one on for sale on Gun Broker and it is not alligned with the other numbers. The last digit of the full serial number on both the front of the frame and the side seems to be ever so slightly smaller and not perfectly aligned. Almost like it was added later.

While there are legitimate proof marks on the under side of the barrel, there is no serial number. That feels odd for a guy who shoots primarily for WW1 Lugers.

The mag is an unnumbered FXO with an eagle 37 on it. The grips are identical to the one on Gun Broker. Outside of what I have mentioned, the gun looks in terrific shape. (I know, I know. I should have pictures. But I spent so much on my new computer and on this gun that there isn't anymore left). But knowing me to be the hopeless braggard that I am, you know that I will be posting pictures later. I can't wait to show this HK to Doug Smith at the OGCA meeting in the middle of September.
Big Norm

Dwight Gruber · 08-30-2005, 09:56 PM

Norm,

Are there barrel/receiver witness marks on this gun?

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 08-30-2005, 10:11 PM

a digital camera is cheap Norm, you are just 'fraid of one

seriously, you can get a nice camera for less than $500, and the one I have takes decent pictures and was $250

Ed

John D. · 08-31-2005, 01:01 AM

Hey Big Norm!!!

Congrats!!! (I think?!! Not quite sure what you see on your P-code - or what you don't see, but expect to...??). Also - what auction are you comparing it to?? I just tried a search on GB for another "P-code" and didn't find one??

Best to you! AND PLEASE: PICTURES!!!

Thanks!

John D.

Big Norm · 08-31-2005, 01:07 AM

Dwight,
the witness lines line up perfectly and look crisp. Only the roughness of the grinding on the locking bolt surprises me. Somebody put lacquer stick on the side serial number, toggle HK emblem and barrel proof marks, but all the other proof marks and front serial number look nice and crisp. The grip screws and the trigger bar spring even have the fire blue on them.

The frames rabbit ears even have the sort of phoscoating appearance just like the Gun Brokers gun did. The only wear that I can see is from the thumb safety being moved. And from the rear of the toggle hitting the frame,

The more that I look at the weapon, the more excited that I get. If Doug Smith christens this gun as original, then this is as close to mint as a guy can get. Ken of FGS said that Doug will be at the OGCA meeting on Sept 17th, I am not really that good on HK's and Nazi era Lugers, so I will be sitting on pins and needles until I show this to Doug.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 08-31-2005, 01:16 AM

Eddie,
just wait a little while. I am currently negotiating for two other Lugers that will be real prizes too. Big money involved. If this works out, then I will have to beg borrow and steal the money for a good camera and some softwear. Besides, I am still struggling with this new Mac computer with its difficult system 10x. I think it will be nice once I figure out all the bells and whistles.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 08-31-2005, 01:24 AM

JohnD,
the post of the other HK was titled "Private HK on GunBroker" and you have to go back on the archives 100 days to find it on this forum. I think that the gun sold for $74-7500. I remember you giving your blessing on it, but you had no comment on the price which everyone thought was high. I didn't pay that much, but the price was still high (maybe).

Big Norm

John D. · 08-31-2005, 09:41 AM

Hi Norm!

Thanks!! If that auction post was any closer to where I was reading this thread - it would'a bitten me!!

Thanks for the link - got it!!

OK - I will defer any of these comments to Doug's opinion on his personal inspection (I envy him!) but here is my $0.0002 based on what I think you mean...

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
My serial number is P1259....

Yep - it puts it in the Late P code series 1. There are a hodge-podge of proofs and parts that may or may not be serialized in that variation. However, for your "Crown N" - is it vertical or horizontal? Also - on the right of the receiver - is there a "rejection star"?

(There is a reason I'm asking about the rejectioin star - as it would assist in determining why you may see a slight difference in the digit on the serial number.)

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
...But the locking bolt has been roughly ground and not polished to make the flat look flat. ...

I'm not sure what you aren't seeing? A picture on this would be great - HOWEVER - not all P-Codes will have a locking bolt that is terribly well finished, and the grinding/polish looks "hand done" (well, they were

)

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
.....there are no serial numbers on the locking bolt, trigger, thumb safety and the rear of the toggle.....

On a P-Code, depending on whether it's a reject from the Military contract or "new production" sent to the commercial channel, is most probably correct. Remember, serialized small parts were entirely random on the later P-codes (S1)...

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
....The last digit of the full serial number on both the front of the frame and the side seems to be ever so slightly smaller and not perfectly aligned. Almost like it was added later.....

Which again - is quite possible. However, these were hand struck, so they are typically never perfectly aligned. The digit intriques me a bit, though - as I'm unclear if you are saying that "9" is a different size - or rather, just not aligned? If there is a toggle link (underside) serialized number ("59"), you may want to compare the two...

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
I....While there are legitimate proof marks on the under side of the barrel, there is no serial number. That feels odd for a guy who shoots primarily for WW1 Lugers.....

- while it may look strange to an Imperial Luger guy - it's probably correct and just fine..

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
....The grips are identical to the one on Gun Broker. ....

Yep - they should be the course brown checkered grips...

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
.... (I know, I know. I should have pictures.)

Couldn't have said it better myself!!!

Best to you Big Norm!!

John D.

Big Norm · 08-31-2005, 02:39 PM

JohnD,
thank you for your comments. I sincerely apreciate them. Krieghoffs are a different breed of Luger and should be taken from a different viewpoint. They are also very expensive and so expert opinion should be sought. I have buddies who collect Lugers in Michigan but they have limitations when it comes to HK's. I value your opinion, but you are not physically available to me. Doug Smith is also a long way from me but I will be going to the OGCA meeting in a few weeks and I will be able to have him physically see the weapon. He is a collector s well as a dealer who has seen many Lugers pass through his hands, so his opinion will be worth while. (Take it from me, he is not afraid to be blunt with his opinion).

Your comment about my having what I call a lazy crown over "N" (horizontal) refers to another 'P' code that I have with a side inscription (serial #P792). I talked to you over the forum about that gun on a much earlier post. I also made a stupid comment on the GB HK post saying that that gun differred from my side inscripted HK in that respects. A little more studying of the books told me that I should have kept my mouth shut. My new HK has an upright Eagle over 'N' in the same locations as the HK that was sold by GunBroker. Very nice and crisp stamping with plumbs around the edges.

My side inscripted HK has a lightly stamped three pointed star on the right side near the front of the frame. It looks like it should be a five pointed star but was poorly located when lightly stamped. My new HK has a nicely stamped and crisp five pointed start in the same area. No plumb around the edges though.

The locking bolt on my new HK does not look like it was hand ground. its so poorly done that it looks almost like a grinding wheel did it. That sort of sprung my 'alert' antenna upwards. But the strawing is good on that part. As I have said many times, I focus first on the locking bolt on a Luger to tell if the gun has been restrawed. The size and the irregular shape of this part makes it difficult for an amateur to maintain the flatness of the surface. This is gradually becoming the only thing that bothers me about this gun. The GB HK looked like the surface of the locking bolt was slightly rounded.

The first three serial numbers (P1259) on the ront of the frame of my new HK are aligned with the 'P' higher than the numbers. The last number (9) is not punched as deeply and is slighly smaller and, therefore, it cannot be perfectly aligned. All numbers appear to be of the German style. The serial numbers on the side have been whittened but the '9' looks slightly misaligned and appears to be stamped at a different time. Hard to tell because of the whittening.

The more I talk, the more I feel that this gun is, otherwise, all original. If it is, then this is one of the few truely minty Lugers that I have seen. But I have seen some exceptionally, excellent restored Lugers. So I will be listening up when Doug comments about the bluing, which cannot be shown very well in a picture. Doug had a 'mint' fat barrel that he bought at Rock Island and that is the only true, verified 'mint' Luger that I have ever seen. It is tough to say that a Luger is 'mint' (especially an HK). But there is just no wear on my new HK! And it scares me.

Next, we will have to talk about a proper magazine. But I'll save that for when I get a camera. Gee, I hate to bring up the camera issue again. I just know what Ed's going to say
Big Norm

John D. · 08-31-2005, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
J.... and I will be able to have him physically see the weapon. He is a collector s well as a dealer who has seen many Lugers pass through his hands, so his opinion will be worth while. (Take it from me, he is not afraid to be blunt with his opinion)...

Hi Big Norm!

Well - maybe it goes with the "turf" - being blunt with ones opinion. Speaking for myself - I've been known on very, very rare, infrequent, maybe, sometimes, on occassion, infrequently, sporadic, intermittent, limited - to bluntly state my opinion as well. However for as rare those times may be - I usually get my point across....

Seriously - I have a lot of respect for Doug and can't wait to hear what his personal observations may be...

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
J....My new HK has an upright Eagle over 'N' .... My new HK has a nicely stamped and crisp five pointed start in the same area. No plumb around the edges though....

Sounds "right on" to me!!! Interestingly, the five-point star typically means that originally - yours was destined for Military production, but then was rejected for whatever reason. That - in and of itself, may account for the discrepency you see in the last digit being a different formation. In the late P-code Series 1, I think you will find both "with" the 5-point star and "without".

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
....The more I talk, the more I feel that this gun is, otherwise, all original. ...

And the more you relay what you see - the more "correct" it appears to me as well... Frankly - I'm excited for you! GREAT JOB! I hope Doug confirms its originality for you - and I lived a bit closer to you, so I could see it first hand!!..

Quote:

Originally posted by Big Norm
....Gee, I hate to bring up the camera issue again. I just know what Ed's going to say...

Big Norm:

Best to you - and thanks for sharing your new HK with the rest of us!

John D.

Edward Tinker · 08-31-2005, 07:12 PM

well, I've got an old digital that I could send him....

or I'd buy him a new one and trade him for a ratty artillery

John D. · 08-31-2005, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edward Tinker
...or I'd buy him a new one and trade him for a ratty artillery

Don't fall for it Big Norm.... Ed's idea of a "new digital" is one of those $10 "one time use" instamatics available at Wally World, CVS and most vending machines...

John D.

Edward Tinker · 08-31-2005, 08:14 PM

well, I never said it'd be a good one!

Heinz · 08-31-2005, 10:10 PM

Norm, you could just send me the Krieg and I could take some nice pictures. Bucky trusts me, so should you. :-)

Big Norm · 09-01-2005, 01:29 AM

Heinz,
thats not what Bucky told me. But I think that he is jealous of your Weimaraners. Bucky wants to be as big as they are.
Big Norm

Big Norm · 09-01-2005, 01:52 AM

JohnD and others,
Bad news! I called Doug today and Ken told me that Doug would not be at the OGCA meeting for the next show. Ken admitted that he isn't that sharp on Kreighoffs. So maybe I won't take my Kreighoff with me. Too bad because I am thinking about canceling my membership with OGCA and going to the Kentucky shows instead. I might not see Doug and Ken again for a long while. They are good people.

But now the good news. I just read a nice email from Southview (Bob) and he gave me some good advice on a digital camera and software for a Mac. I am negotiating for two Lugers now, but if I only buy one, then maybe I can afford to get the camera and software. Tough call - Lugers or camera.
Big Norm

08-30-2005, 09:53 PM	#1
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	My New 'P' Code I just got myself a new Krieghoff 'P' code. It is a ringer for a 'P' code (ser #P1126) posted earlier under "Private HK on Gun Broker". My serial number is P1259. I have been sitting here comparing the two HK's trying to assure myself that I made a good purchase. My HK has less wear on the side plate. But the locking bolt has been roughly ground and not polished to make the flat look flat. The strawing is good though. I am surprized to see that there are no serial numbers on the locking bolt, trigger, thumb safety and the rear of the toggle. The "P" in front of the serial number on the front of the frame is located higher than the one on for sale on Gun Broker and it is not alligned with the other numbers. The last digit of the full serial number on both the front of the frame and the side seems to be ever so slightly smaller and not perfectly aligned. Almost like it was added later. While there are legitimate proof marks on the under side of the barrel, there is no serial number. That feels odd for a guy who shoots primarily for WW1 Lugers. The mag is an unnumbered FXO with an eagle 37 on it. The grips are identical to the one on Gun Broker. Outside of what I have mentioned, the gun looks in terrific shape. (I know, I know. I should have pictures. But I spent so much on my new computer and on this gun that there isn't anymore left). But knowing me to be the hopeless braggard that I am, you know that I will be posting pictures later. I can't wait to show this HK to Doug Smith at the OGCA meeting in the middle of September. Big Norm

08-30-2005, 10:11 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	a digital camera is cheap Norm, you are just 'fraid of one seriously, you can get a nice camera for less than $500, and the one I have takes decent pictures and was $250 Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-31-2005, 07:12 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	well, I've got an old digital that I could send him.... or I'd buy him a new one and trade him for a ratty artillery __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-31-2005, 08:14 PM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	well, I never said it'd be a good one! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-30-2005, 09:56 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Norm, Are there barrel/receiver witness marks on this gun? --Dwight

08-31-2005, 01:01 AM	#4
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hey Big Norm!!! Congrats!!! (I think?!! Not quite sure what you see on your P-code - or what you don't see, but expect to...??). Also - what auction are you comparing it to?? I just tried a search on GB for another "P-code" and didn't find one?? Best to you! AND PLEASE: PICTURES!!! Thanks! John D.

08-31-2005, 01:07 AM	#5
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Dwight, the witness lines line up perfectly and look crisp. Only the roughness of the grinding on the locking bolt surprises me. Somebody put lacquer stick on the side serial number, toggle HK emblem and barrel proof marks, but all the other proof marks and front serial number look nice and crisp. The grip screws and the trigger bar spring even have the fire blue on them. The frames rabbit ears even have the sort of phoscoating appearance just like the Gun Brokers gun did. The only wear that I can see is from the thumb safety being moved. And from the rear of the toggle hitting the frame, The more that I look at the weapon, the more excited that I get. If Doug Smith christens this gun as original, then this is as close to mint as a guy can get. Ken of FGS said that Doug will be at the OGCA meeting on Sept 17th, I am not really that good on HK's and Nazi era Lugers, so I will be sitting on pins and needles until I show this to Doug. Big Norm

08-31-2005, 01:16 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Eddie, just wait a little while. I am currently negotiating for two other Lugers that will be real prizes too. Big money involved. If this works out, then I will have to beg borrow and steal the money for a good camera and some softwear. Besides, I am still struggling with this new Mac computer with its difficult system 10x. I think it will be nice once I figure out all the bells and whistles. Big Norm

08-31-2005, 01:24 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	JohnD, the post of the other HK was titled "Private HK on GunBroker" and you have to go back on the archives 100 days to find it on this forum. I think that the gun sold for $74-7500. I remember you giving your blessing on it, but you had no comment on the price which everyone thought was high. I didn't pay that much, but the price was still high (maybe). Big Norm

08-31-2005, 02:39 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	JohnD, thank you for your comments. I sincerely apreciate them. Krieghoffs are a different breed of Luger and should be taken from a different viewpoint. They are also very expensive and so expert opinion should be sought. I have buddies who collect Lugers in Michigan but they have limitations when it comes to HK's. I value your opinion, but you are not physically available to me. Doug Smith is also a long way from me but I will be going to the OGCA meeting in a few weeks and I will be able to have him physically see the weapon. He is a collector s well as a dealer who has seen many Lugers pass through his hands, so his opinion will be worth while. (Take it from me, he is not afraid to be blunt with his opinion). Your comment about my having what I call a lazy crown over "N" (horizontal) refers to another 'P' code that I have with a side inscription (serial #P792). I talked to you over the forum about that gun on a much earlier post. I also made a stupid comment on the GB HK post saying that that gun differred from my side inscripted HK in that respects. A little more studying of the books told me that I should have kept my mouth shut. My new HK has an upright Eagle over 'N' in the same locations as the HK that was sold by GunBroker. Very nice and crisp stamping with plumbs around the edges. My side inscripted HK has a lightly stamped three pointed star on the right side near the front of the frame. It looks like it should be a five pointed star but was poorly located when lightly stamped. My new HK has a nicely stamped and crisp five pointed start in the same area. No plumb around the edges though. The locking bolt on my new HK does not look like it was hand ground. its so poorly done that it looks almost like a grinding wheel did it. That sort of sprung my 'alert' antenna upwards. But the strawing is good on that part. As I have said many times, I focus first on the locking bolt on a Luger to tell if the gun has been restrawed. The size and the irregular shape of this part makes it difficult for an amateur to maintain the flatness of the surface. This is gradually becoming the only thing that bothers me about this gun. The GB HK looked like the surface of the locking bolt was slightly rounded. The first three serial numbers (P1259) on the ront of the frame of my new HK are aligned with the 'P' higher than the numbers. The last number (9) is not punched as deeply and is slighly smaller and, therefore, it cannot be perfectly aligned. All numbers appear to be of the German style. The serial numbers on the side have been whittened but the '9' looks slightly misaligned and appears to be stamped at a different time. Hard to tell because of the whittening. The more I talk, the more I feel that this gun is, otherwise, all original. If it is, then this is one of the few truely minty Lugers that I have seen. But I have seen some exceptionally, excellent restored Lugers. So I will be listening up when Doug comments about the bluing, which cannot be shown very well in a picture. Doug had a 'mint' fat barrel that he bought at Rock Island and that is the only true, verified 'mint' Luger that I have ever seen. It is tough to say that a Luger is 'mint' (especially an HK). But there is just no wear on my new HK! And it scares me. Next, we will have to talk about a proper magazine. But I'll save that for when I get a camera. Gee, I hate to bring up the camera issue again. I just know what Ed's going to say Big Norm

08-31-2005, 10:10 PM	#14
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Norm, you could just send me the Krieg and I could take some nice pictures. Bucky trusts me, so should you. :-)

09-01-2005, 01:29 AM	#15
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Heinz, thats not what Bucky told me. But I think that he is jealous of your Weimaraners. Bucky wants to be as big as they are. Big Norm

09-01-2005, 01:52 AM	#16
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	JohnD and others, Bad news! I called Doug today and Ken told me that Doug would not be at the OGCA meeting for the next show. Ken admitted that he isn't that sharp on Kreighoffs. So maybe I won't take my Kreighoff with me. Too bad because I am thinking about canceling my membership with OGCA and going to the Kentucky shows instead. I might not see Doug and Ken again for a long while. They are good people. But now the good news. I just read a nice email from Southview (Bob) and he gave me some good advice on a digital camera and software for a Mac. I am negotiating for two Lugers now, but if I only buy one, then maybe I can afford to get the camera and software. Tough call - Lugers or camera. Big Norm