Abercrombie, made in France, fake or real?

[erndog105]

In the book Parabellum, (if I am reading it correctly) it states that to have "made in FRance" on the
barrel of an Abercrombie and Fitch luger makes it a fake since the gun was not made in France.
DFW arms is selling one marked as such and says the barrel is made in France. I am confused. Can someone clear this up for me? Thks

[Vlim]

Hi,

No lugers, ever, were made in France.

Well, perhaps one or two for the purpose of patenting the luger design in France. This had to do with a loophole in the French patent law, which stated that only designs produced in France could be patented there. Gun companies contracted engineers to build one-offs in France.

This A&F luger certainly wasn't made in France. A French made barrel makes more sense. But I'm not an expert on French barrel production.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi EW,

If you are reading in the V. Bobba book on Swiss lugers, I think he is talking about the A&F lugers not being made in Switzerland...not in France.

Bobba states that an American retailer ordering commercial lugers and then having barrels made in Switzerland (possibly by SIG) does not realy make the luger a Swiss product...but the "Made in Switzerland" on the barrel may have been A&F attempt to "hype" sales of a luger that may be mistaken by American buyers as Swiss-made.

The A&F lugers are DWM-German made Swiss commerical lugers with the A&F barrel added. Maybe the 1920's was a better time to sell "Swiss-made" guns in the USA rather than German-made guns...as we just finished the Great War with the Germans so American's may not have wanted to buy much German stuff, then...

I do not think it is known, for certain, where the barrels where changed out...in Germany, in Switzerland, or in the USA. My WAG would be in the USA with barrels bought by A&F from Switzerland.

I think this is the "deception" in marketing author Bobba may have been referring to...leading the American buyers to thinking the entire luger was made in Switzerland...when only the barrel was.

BTW...if this is the DFW lugers you are looking at, I think it is wrong. Certainly that "odd" stock lug added is not right.

I do not recall the other A&F lugers having a stock lug.

One also needs to question why the DFW offering does not have the 4-digit serial number on the left side of its receiver flat, as well. If I recall correctly, other A&F lugers do. This gun may have the 4-digits...but the glare of the photo makes it hard to tell or not.

A good photo of the front sight barrel band may be useful as well. DFW photos seem to crop out this important detail.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976525903.htm

Probably a product of the Luger Mafia... Or a local gun smith attempt to be able to shoot with a stock...???

[John Sabato]

Gerben, weren't there some small quantity of Lugers made or assembled in France after WW2 for French Police and Military use? I can not remember where I read this, but I believe that some were made in France in 1945-46 including a couple of LP-08 models... check in Mauro's book on the Artillery Model. I do not have access to my Luger library references at the moment.

[Vlim]

John,

Mauser did produce some lugers after WW2, but they were assembled in Oberndorf, at the Mauser plant, under French control. Not in France.

[mauro]

John,
Mauser started again the production of the P08 and LP08 under French control in period 1945-1947.
So far 4 variants have been analyzed; these models differ mainly for the numbering pattern used. The most important difference wrt the previous WWII production is the serial numbering pattern and the bluing. The P08 were used until 1970 by the French gendarmerie (Military police, it is possible to find information about this model in the Official Gendarmerie web site). The LP08 models were produced on demand and for the Spahis (Africans troops) of the General Pierre Koenig (1898 â?? 1970), supreme commander and military governor of the French zone in postwar Germany.
Cheers,
Mauro

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally posted by mauro
The P08 were used until 1970 by the French gendarmerie (Military police, it is possible to find information about this model in the Official Gendarmerie web site).

http://www.servicehistorique.sga.def...nt/centre1.htm

"Rearmament without standardization

"At the end of WWII, the national police force (Gendarmerie) has in its racks, in addition to its regulation weapons, a goodly number of both allied and enemy arms. It goes without saying that these include the American Thompson and the British Sten machine pistols, but one should not forget German Army weapons as well, such as the MP-38 and MP-40. The source of these weapons is easy to guess: they were either parachuted in as supplies, or captured as spoils of war.

"Of all these weapons only one continued officially in service, the Sten. But if this machine-gun came into service with the Gendarmerie in a 'traditional' way, it was not the same for two future regulation pistols of German origin. These are, of course, the legendary Luger P-08 and Walther P-38, which were in service from 1945 until the early 1970s. The official acceptance of these two pistols into the French army, and particularly the Gendarmerie, came as a result of the capture of weapons at the end of the war. In 1945 the army, under General De Lattre, took over the Mauser factory in Oberndorf.

"Before continuing this story, it is interesting to understand the history and operation of these two pistols.

"The P-08 is an improved version of the pistol designed by Hugo Borchardt. This weapon, in a total break with production of the end of the nineteenth century, was the first truly operational semi-automatic pistol. Among its innovations is its knuckle action, opening after a short recoil. Moreover, for the first time a removable magazine is included in the handle. In 1898, Georg Luger set to improve the model. This work was completed in 1908: in that year the Kaiser decreed that this pistol was to become the ordinance pistol for the troops of Imperial Germany. The knuckle-action of the pistol was retained, and a loaded indicator was included. On the other hand, the toggle lock, grip safety, and positive roller-action opening were eliminated.

"The P-08 was produced for the German army until 1942, the year the Walther P-38 definitively replaced it. The Waltherâ??s design features are simple, but terribly effective:
-double action trigger
-loaded indicator
-decocking safety

"By chance and allied victories, the French army took possession of the Mauser factory in 1945. They were soon disappointedâ??with the exception of a few weapons, the racks were empty. However, there remained cases of unassembled parts.

"The French government ordered the re-opening of the factory and resumption of production, with the profit going to the army under General De Lattre. No new weapons manufacture was undertaken, however; those in charge of the factory were satisfied to assemble guns from the available parts. Thus, thanks to the captured weapons and the lack of French weapons, the Gendarmerie officially used the P-08 and P-38."


If there are any French speakers out there who can improve this translation, particularly in the technical (gun details) and colloquial areas, it will be educational and appreciated.

The translation of the French term used to describe the toggle action is "knuckle", but sometimes is returned as "knee".

--Dwight

[mauro]

Hi Dwight,
You translation is good to me.
Actually the P08 and LP08 were used not only by the Gendarmerie but also by the Army.
I am working on this matter, for example I kept in touch with the Spahis museum in France to clarify the use of "French" LP08 and I am waiting for some documents and pictures.
I guess this is a nice area of research.
Cheers,
Mauro