Is This Swiss A Good One?

[Mauser720]

I know so little about Swiss Lugers that I would appreciate what the experts have to say about this one that appears on www.gunbroker.com
Thank you,

Mauser720 - Ron

***********

Description for Item # 80216381

1906 Swiss military cross/sunburst all matching including grips. This is an Excellent untouched example 100% original finish and not messed with. The grips are beautiful. NOTE: In some pics it looks like there are blemishes to the finish. These are specks of oil or a flaw in the pic. There is ZERO corrosion on this pistol! There is a very small amount of blue loss. The pics dont capture the beauty all that well. Also included is a Pre-war Swiss officers dagger, brass tool, and a 1906 swiss holster well marked. Made in Zurich and the year 1906, (No straps). The Display box is not included. If you are interested in the Luger only, please e-mail. I tried to get as many angles as possible for you to see. 3 day no fire inspection. Buyer pays shipping and any other transfer fees.

[champ7fc]

Hi Ron, I own two Swiss pistols, I am not an expert so , with that said here is my opinion. The pistol overal looks legit the bluing looks correct, the finish is shy of 100%,IMHO. Swiss pistols have generally good factory bluing because most of them were well cared for by their owners. Although the grips look too new for the age of the pistol I would have to handle the Luger to be sure. Both of my Swiss are in great shape, a 06/29 and a 06/24 Bern. For a sexy Luger , you cannot beat a Swiss. Thats my two cents. Best to you, Craig

[Mauser720]

Craig -

I appreciate your insights on this pistol. I certainly do not need another gun, but I also agree that these Swiss Lugers are just beautiful. Thank you for taking the time to look at it and comment.

Mauser720 - Ron

[Lyn Islaub]

I would defer to Pete Ebbink, our resident Swiss Luger expert, for the final judgement, but to me this pistol looks right for a 1906 DWM Model. It was delivered sometime in 1908 and was one of 1,950 that year. The price is another issue and you might see what Doug Smith is asking on the FGS web site for comparison, as he usually has the best selection of Swiss Lugers for sale.
Lyn

[Mauser720]

Lyn -

What or where is the "FGS web site" ?

I would like to check that out.

Thank you, Ron

[Pete Ebbink]

Ron,

I would never call myself an expert of Swiss Lugers...just a Swiss "nut".

Here is the G-B link to the Luger in question :

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...?Item=80216381

I liked the overall look to this gun...lots of glare in the photos to say if original finish or not or possibly a Bern re-do.

BUT...the bigger issue I have with this piece can be seen in this photo :



Hard to tell for sure...but the photo seems to show a barrel serial number of 527x and a front frame SN of 2262.

SN 527x places the Ordnance (military) gun in the correct range of M1906 cross/sunburst pistols.

SN of the frame of 2262 is another matter altogether. One cannot be sure where that bottom half of the Luger cam from...but not from the original top-half of the pistol. It could be the bottom of a M1900 Swiss or another commercial piece.

Ad says "all matching"...NOT...

Another photo of the rear of the frame/toggle shows the number "203" on the tang of the rear toggle. This means another gun with its SN ending in x203 donated parts to this gun. So we have evidence of at least 3 guns giving up parts for this "assemblage".



The price is too high for a "parts gun" no matter how nicely finished. It has no collector-value IMHO...

MS State is a known source for bogus guns...including many "Swiss" Lugers. This G-B seller may not be the "mechanic" out of MN, but he may just be an unfortunate who happened to get snagged by this fellows wares and is now "dumping" it...

BTW...link to the FGS web site. Doug Smith and Ken Clark are very trustworthy Luger sellers. Some of the other big dealer names are not...

http://www.fgsinc.8m.com/

[Mauser720]

Pete -

I can't thank you enough for your guidance and insights. I had bid $3,050 on this item, and it did not meet the seller's "reserve" price. So I'm glad now that I did not meet his reserve price. Thank you for preventing me from making a big mistake!

Mauser720 - Ron

[Pete Ebbink]

Glad I could help, Ron.

BTW...from the one photo of the top view, it looks like the depth of the cross/sunburst chamber impression has lost some of its depth and crispness. This will usually also indicate a rework as some point in time.

If you do not have this book, you might want to buy it before spending $$'s on a Swiss Luger. It is written in Italian and English, side-by-side on the same page. It is sort-of the Swiss "bible" and started this new collector out in the Swiss world...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2625

The Simpson price is for a new copy.

Used ones for less money are on www.abebooks.com

(Text added : I could be wrong thinking I saw the frame SN as 2262...it might actually be 2203 which would make the rear toggle match with its "203" number...but the barrel number is still wrong...).

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
I tried a couple of photo manipulations to try to bring up the serial numbers. In one of the views it does look like the frame number might be 2203. Harder to tell on the barrel but the last three digits come close to looking like 203 (but they also might look like 273, 205, 263 or 265). Would need a better photo to make the call.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Ron,

If the barrel SN is not a SN of 527x and is rather 2203, to explain an Ordnance M1906 cross/sunburst in the 22xx SN range would still be a "creative" exercise...would it not.

I do not think I see any commercial BUG proofs...

I played around with the barrel photo as much as I could, I think the number string on the barrel does start with a "5"...

[Dwight Gruber]

Can't get Photoshop to work here right now, so can't help with the photo manipulation analysis. What occurs to me is, the visible digits on the barrel do not appear to be "even", but are biased a bit to the right of the picture--as though there is an obscured first digit.

With DWM manufactured guns, the three-digit small part stamps all occur with 5-digit serial numbers. Actually, it looks like the trigger plate has only one digit.

--Dwight

[Ron Wood]

Pete,
Agreed, 2203 on the barrel or frame would not go with a 1906. The first digit probably is a "5", and Dwight's observation that there may be an obscured first digit also is a possibility. Anyway, a 22xx frame should be a 1900 and I don't see any evidence of a removed toggle latch on the right frame rail. Pretty gun, I wonder what it is/was?

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Dwight,


Let say the barrel is 1xxxx...(forget-about the last 4 digits...)

That could place the gun's barrel in the M1906 cross/shield SN range since they ran from SN 9051 through SN 15215...not in the SN range for a Ordnance cross/sunburst...

So still a parts-guns with some mystery of the origins of most of its SN 2203 components with a 5-digit barrel of 1xxxx origins...

Still not a gun worth $ 3K...maybe $ 1400-1500 for a nice looking shooter-class gun...

Ron,

You're right...a very nice looking gun to look at...if price were low, I would be looking at it for a shooter piece myself...

[Pete Ebbink]

Cannot really see what proofs are on the left side of the receiver...not sure if it is "+/V" and "+" or not...

[Lyn Islaub]

Pete/Ron,
Thanks for correcting my oversight. My feeble eyes had passed right over the mis-match.
Lyn

[Dwight Gruber]

Pete,

It looks much more like an +/letter and +, than a c/B c/U.

--Dwight

[Mauser720]

Pete -

I just now ordered the book. Thank you very much for the valuable information.

Mauser720 - Ron

[Heinz]

imho, when you look at photos posted by a professional dealer on an auction site and glare from lights or a flash obscure the details,it is not an accident. Bad pictures are meant to hide obvious defects. The picture below was taken with a cheap Nikon Cool pics comparing a reblue and an original. Have any trouble finding the reblue?

[Pete Ebbink]

Ron,

I do not think you will be disappointed with the book...

Heinz,

Great photo postings !

[Pete Ebbink]

Lyn,

Easy to do...especially when you think you might have a real "sock-drawer" or "attic find" gun in front of you. That emotionality seems to blind us, momentarily...