Narrowing it down...(the first purchase, that is...)

Bart · 10-19-2001, 12:01 PM

I have looked in several books, but can't seem to find if the grips on the "Black Widow" labeled Lugers came with wood OR plastic, or just plastic. If they did in fact come in both "flavors" which is the most desirable?

Thanks,

Bart

Johnny Peppers · 10-19-2001, 12:35 PM

Bart,

The term "Black Widow" was given to the late P08's with plastic grips and mag bottoms by a dealer who couldn't sell the pistols as few collectors wanted the pistols with the plastic grips. The term caught on, and demand for the pistols went up. A "Black Widow" will have plastic grips and mag bottom.

Bart · 10-19-2001, 01:54 PM

When you say "mag bottom" are you refering to "magnesium"? What exactly does "mag" stand for?

Thanks,

Bart

John Sabato · 10-19-2001, 02:20 PM

John Sabato · 10-19-2001, 02:32 PM

You will find a "Black Widow" byf41 with the original black plastic grips. Unfortunately, the magazine is not original to the pistol, but is the magazine that was brought home with it by the capturing veteran I bought it from. The mag shown is an extruded nickle-plated police magazine with aluminum bottom and this magazine was manufactured by Haenel Schmeisser.

I guess after looking at the Owner's Corner, that I am the only one who is listing photos of a Black Widow. It is my understanding that those Lugers made by Mauser and coded byf 42 also had some that were fitted with black plastic grips, but all those shown in the Owner's Corner are displayed with wooden grips.

Mine was refinished back in the 1970's when I bought it... all that is there in the writeup.

A fine Mauser made shooter...

-regards,

John Sabato

Dok · 10-19-2001, 02:51 PM

refers to the small end piece that goes in the bottom of the magazine (hence "mag bottom"). Originally these were always made of wood, then other materials started to be used. Aluminum and black plastic are also common. The Black Widow (recognize this is a marketing ploy) is most commonly shown with black plastic grips and a black plastic mag bottom.

Dok

Bart · 10-19-2001, 03:31 PM

Hi John,

Your Luger is a beauty, and I found your story truly fascinating! You simply can't put a monetary value on a story like that...what a great slice of history!

Now you have me asking another question. Yours is a "byf"41, which I am going to assume as the "byf" marking on the top of the chamber. However, I am considering buying one (a Black Widow) that just has the number 42 where the "byf" normally is. It is similar to one shown in the Owners Corner from Kyrie, folder "1940 Mauser". It has the same "42" on it, but no "byf". The chamber date is stamped 1939. I think I read somewhere, that the byf was dropped and the 42 replaced. Please let me know your thoughts about the absence of the "byf". Is this a negative (no disrespect to Kyrie and the "1940 Mauser")? Or a positive?

Thanks,

Bart

Dok · 10-19-2001, 03:56 PM

Look in the Owner's Corner under Marvin --> 5 Photos...

and the two at the bottom labeled 1941 byf & 1942 byf

These are good representations of a Black Widow.

Dok

Dok · 10-19-2001, 03:59 PM

while John Sabato's Luger is truly lovely, a Black Widow would not have strawing on it anywhere. All small parts would be "black". Strawing was discontinued in late 1937.

Dok

Bart · 10-19-2001, 04:03 PM

Can a Black Widow, be a "Black Widow" if it doesnt have the "byf" marking on it? What if it is chamber marked 1939, and has a 42 on the toggle? Can it still be a Black Widow? It has plastic grips, but I have been advised that they probably were replacing worn or damaged wood grips. Your thoughts? Anybody?

Thanks,

Bart

Dok · 10-19-2001, 04:07 PM

I gave the wrong dates oof Marvin's pics, but I've corrected it now... should be 1941/942...

To answer your question... I suppose so... as the "Black Widow" was the invention of some dealer, it's my guess it could be any Mauser that met the critera of dip blue, black grips, black mag bottom.

Any other opinions???

Dok

John Sabato · 10-19-2001, 04:26 PM

The parts that are normally strawed I just had polished bright and they are still in the white... but you are correct, these parts would have all been blued on a Luger of this vintage..

-John

Dok · 10-19-2001, 04:39 PM

cuz it sure looks strawed. But above all, it is a lovely piece.

Dok

Hugh · 10-19-2001, 08:58 PM

I believe that the term "Black Widow" could only be correctly applied to a byf 41 or byf 42, as these were the only guns originally issued with black plastic grips. I am open to correction if this is wrong.

Bart · 10-19-2001, 11:16 PM

Hugh, what you are saying is that if I see a 1939 Chamber dated Luger with a "42" on the toggle, no byf mark, with plastic (bakelite) grips, it isn't a "true" Black Widow?

Also, being a newbie/rookie/wet-behind-the-ears Lugerhead, why were these particular Lugars issued with black plastic grips in the first place? Is there any books dealing with Black Widows I can check out? Many people have told me that it was a marketing ploy for an arms dealer to call it a Black Widow, but there must have been some reason these were made with the black plastic grips in the first place, right? I am curious to know what the reason(s) were.

Thanks,

Bart

Johnny Peppers · 10-20-2001, 12:00 AM

Bart,

The simple answer to the black plastic grips is that they were an authorized replacement for wooden grips when the wooden grips were not available. According to Still, the black plastic grips started showing up in late 1939, were used on approximately 2% of 1940 production, and approximately 20% of production in 1941 and 1942. Even finding a complete rig with plastic grips and plastic magazine bottoms offers no concrete proof that the pistol left Mauser that way. As the magazine bottoms were not serial numbered to the pistol, it is a convenient way to make an all matching rig. Your best bet on a book to give you this information would be Jan Still's "Third Reich Lugers". As the "Black Widow" was never an officially recognized variation, I would doubt that a book would ever be devoted to this grip variation.

Bart · 10-20-2001, 12:14 AM

Johnny, so theoretically, a 42 code Luger, chamber dated 1939, sans the byf stamp, COULD have had the plastic grips as original? Correct? I just want to understand if that is in fact possible, based on what you indicated in your post.

Thanks,

Bart

Thor · 10-20-2001, 12:49 AM

Bart, Still does have a picture in TRL of a 1940/42 that has the black plastic grips, and says it comes from his collection so I suspect as Johnny says, it is original, In Still's opinion. Thor

Johnny Peppers · 10-20-2001, 11:23 AM

Bart,

In my post I indicated that "according to Still" the grips were used on very late 1939 42 code Lugers. Personally I have never heard of or seen one, and also as indicated there is no way to prove one way or the other if the grips are correct. As the 1939 dated P08's started in the late q or early r suffix and ended with the z suffix, it would most probably have to be a z suffix to qualify according to Still's information.

Personally, I would be very wary of a 1939 42 Code with black plastic grips. The same pistol with matching wood grips would be easier to live with.

10-19-2001, 12:01 PM	#1
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Narrowing it down...(the first purchase, that is...) I have looked in several books, but can't seem to find if the grips on the "Black Widow" labeled Lugers came with wood OR plastic, or just plastic. If they did in fact come in both "flavors" which is the most desirable? Thanks, Bart

10-19-2001, 12:35 PM	#2
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Narrowing it down...(the first purchase, that is...) Bart, The term "Black Widow" was given to the late P08's with plastic grips and mag bottoms by a dealer who couldn't sell the pistols as few collectors wanted the pistols with the plastic grips. The term caught on, and demand for the pistols went up. A "Black Widow" will have plastic grips and mag bottom.

10-19-2001, 01:54 PM	#3
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Narrowing it down...(the first purchase, that is...) When you say "mag bottom" are you refering to "magnesium"? What exactly does "mag" stand for? Thanks, Bart

10-19-2001, 02:20 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Bart, that would be the bottom piece of the magazine... (EOM)

10-19-2001, 02:32 PM	#5
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Bart check out the owner's corner under my name... You will find a "Black Widow" byf41 with the original black plastic grips. Unfortunately, the magazine is not original to the pistol, but is the magazine that was brought home with it by the capturing veteran I bought it from. The mag shown is an extruded nickle-plated police magazine with aluminum bottom and this magazine was manufactured by Haenel Schmeisser. I guess after looking at the Owner's Corner, that I am the only one who is listing photos of a Black Widow. It is my understanding that those Lugers made by Mauser and coded byf 42 also had some that were fitted with black plastic grips, but all those shown in the Owner's Corner are displayed with wooden grips. Mine was refinished back in the 1970's when I bought it... all that is there in the writeup. A fine Mauser made shooter... -regards, John Sabato

10-19-2001, 02:51 PM	#6
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Bart, the mag bottom... refers to the small end piece that goes in the bottom of the magazine (hence "mag bottom"). Originally these were always made of wood, then other materials started to be used. Aluminum and black plastic are also common. The Black Widow (recognize this is a marketing ploy) is most commonly shown with black plastic grips and a black plastic mag bottom. Dok

10-19-2001, 03:31 PM	#7
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Your Black Widow. Hi John, Your Luger is a beauty, and I found your story truly fascinating! You simply can't put a monetary value on a story like that...what a great slice of history! Now you have me asking another question. Yours is a "byf"41, which I am going to assume as the "byf" marking on the top of the chamber. However, I am considering buying one (a Black Widow) that just has the number 42 where the "byf" normally is. It is similar to one shown in the Owners Corner from Kyrie, folder "1940 Mauser". It has the same "42" on it, but no "byf". The chamber date is stamped 1939. I think I read somewhere, that the byf was dropped and the 42 replaced. Please let me know your thoughts about the absence of the "byf". Is this a negative (no disrespect to Kyrie and the "1940 Mauser")? Or a positive? Thanks, Bart

10-19-2001, 03:56 PM	#8
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Bart, for a look at a Black Widow [corrected]... Look in the Owner's Corner under Marvin --> 5 Photos... and the two at the bottom labeled 1941 byf & 1942 byf These are good representations of a Black Widow. Dok

10-19-2001, 03:59 PM	#9
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Just as an aside... while John Sabato's Luger is truly lovely, a Black Widow would not have strawing on it anywhere. All small parts would be "black". Strawing was discontinued in late 1937. Dok

10-19-2001, 04:03 PM	#10
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank Dok... Can a Black Widow, be a "Black Widow" if it doesnt have the "byf" marking on it? What if it is chamber marked 1939, and has a 42 on the toggle? Can it still be a Black Widow? It has plastic grips, but I have been advised that they probably were replacing worn or damaged wood grips. Your thoughts? Anybody? Thanks, Bart

10-19-2001, 04:07 PM	#11
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Re: Thank Dok... I gave the wrong dates oof Marvin's pics, but I've corrected it now... should be 1941/942... To answer your question... I suppose so... as the "Black Widow" was the invention of some dealer, it's my guess it could be any Mauser that met the critera of dip blue, black grips, black mag bottom. Any other opinions??? Dok

10-19-2001, 04:14 PM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture The marking over the chamber of the pistol is the manufacture date for WW2 pistols in this class and may be either two or four digits depending on the model. Some other luger pistol categories may have other symbols, crests, or information in this area depending upon when and for whom the pistol was made. Be sure to check out the Technical Information link to your left and you will find examples of most common markings there. Thanks for the compliment on my byf. I really like my lugers a lot and would never consider selling or trading them! -John http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/byf41.jpg

10-19-2001, 04:26 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Hey Dok, I know they may look strawed, BUT... The parts that are normally strawed I just had polished bright and they are still in the white... but you are correct, these parts would have all been blued on a Luger of this vintage.. -John

10-19-2001, 04:39 PM	#14
Dok RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Bermuda (Eat Your Heart Out) Posts: 1,626 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Wow... it must be the lighting... cuz it sure looks strawed. But above all, it is a lovely piece. Dok

10-19-2001, 08:58 PM	#15
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	Re: Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture I believe that the term "Black Widow" could only be correctly applied to a byf 41 or byf 42, as these were the only guns originally issued with black plastic grips. I am open to correction if this is wrong.

10-19-2001, 11:16 PM	#16
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture Hugh, what you are saying is that if I see a 1939 Chamber dated Luger with a "42" on the toggle, no byf mark, with plastic (bakelite) grips, it isn't a "true" Black Widow? Also, being a newbie/rookie/wet-behind-the-ears Lugerhead, why were these particular Lugars issued with black plastic grips in the first place? Is there any books dealing with Black Widows I can check out? Many people have told me that it was a marketing ploy for an arms dealer to call it a Black Widow, but there must have been some reason these were made with the black plastic grips in the first place, right? I am curious to know what the reason(s) were. Thanks, Bart

10-20-2001, 12:00 AM	#17
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture Bart, The simple answer to the black plastic grips is that they were an authorized replacement for wooden grips when the wooden grips were not available. According to Still, the black plastic grips started showing up in late 1939, were used on approximately 2% of 1940 production, and approximately 20% of production in 1941 and 1942. Even finding a complete rig with plastic grips and plastic magazine bottoms offers no concrete proof that the pistol left Mauser that way. As the magazine bottoms were not serial numbered to the pistol, it is a convenient way to make an all matching rig. Your best bet on a book to give you this information would be Jan Still's "Third Reich Lugers". As the "Black Widow" was never an officially recognized variation, I would doubt that a book would ever be devoted to this grip variation.

10-20-2001, 12:14 AM	#18
Bart User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 85 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture Johnny, so theoretically, a 42 code Luger, chamber dated 1939, sans the byf stamp, COULD have had the plastic grips as original? Correct? I just want to understand if that is in fact possible, based on what you indicated in your post. Thanks, Bart

10-20-2001, 12:49 AM	#19
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Re: Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture Bart, Still does have a picture in TRL of a 1940/42 that has the black plastic grips, and says it comes from his collection so I suspect as Johnny says, it is original, In Still's opinion. Thor

10-20-2001, 11:23 AM	#20
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: Bart, byf and 42 are codes for Mauser manufacture Bart, In my post I indicated that "according to Still" the grips were used on very late 1939 42 code Lugers. Personally I have never heard of or seen one, and also as indicated there is no way to prove one way or the other if the grips are correct. As the 1939 dated P08's started in the late q or early r suffix and ended with the z suffix, it would most probably have to be a z suffix to qualify according to Still's information. Personally, I would be very wary of a 1939 42 Code with black plastic grips. The same pistol with matching wood grips would be easier to live with.