Range report Mauser P-08 1974

[HisSoldier]

Today for the first time in over forty years I shot a "Luger". My dad had one, a 1916 that was in excellent condition. I wanted that gun so badly, but dad sold it to someone else before I became of age, since my mom didn't believe in firearms.
I received this one from a collector who bought it ANIB many years ago. I figured that if it had been fired I'd use it as my shooter. I found evidence of firing gunk inside it, and some cotton that had snagged while it was being cleaned. Anyway, I figure that since it is a 4" barreled 9 MM, and that they were made in abundance, I'd shoot it even if it hadn't been fired since the factory. My other one is a .30 caliber 6" barreled P-08, and I believe they only made 4070 of those.
The sun was going down, and it took some time to fire the 20 rounds needed for the Chrony. Towards the end I had to tip the Chronograph sideways so it would read. 10 rounds were PMC Bronze, a cheap FMJ round nose. The other 10 were Federal American Eagle with the same bullet. The cost differed about $.50 between the two boxes.
The PMC averaged 1058 FPS with max variation of 32 FPS, while the Federal averaged 1123 FPS with variation of 54 FPS.
In all I shot 20 of the PMC tonight and 28 of the Federal. There were no failures to operate in any way, which tickled me! The target was 22 yards away and once again I showed my lack of pistol prowess, averaging about an 8" group of ten rounds. I believe this pistol is more accurate than my Colt Stainless Commander but less accurate than my Kimber Match, at least in my hands. The trigger does not feel bad, not gritty, no "steps" in it, but a bit heavy, as I expected.
Dang, I do like this weapon! Thanks for bearing with my narrative.

[Sieger]

Hi:

Well, if I hadn't held or shot a Luger in over 40 years, I sure as hell wouldn't admit it!

These Mauser "Lugers" are interesting, but they lack the "feel" of the originals because of the "redesign" of the grip panels.

On the other hand, the springs they were supplied with seem to work quite well with many brands of modern ammo.

Enjoy shooting both of your Mauser Parabellums!!

Sieger

[HisSoldier]

How exactly did they change it, The grip shape I mean.

[Sieger]

Hi:

First of all, the original military P-08 had no grip safety to fool with.

The original grips were shaped and angled so that there was a perfectly natural transition between metal and grip to the feeling in your hand. They were well tapered and rounded where necessary to facilitate this natural feeling. You would really have to hold an original to feel the perfection of fit I am trying to describe. As my Dad use to say,... "the pistol just falls into your hand".

On the Mauser Parabellums, the engineers "lost the art" of making the pistol fit in your hand. They "squared" the grips near their edges and also used much coarser checkering.

When you have a chance, get hold of an original P-08, if just for a minute, and you will definitely feel a great difference between the old and new approaches.

Sieger

[Vlim]

Although the Mauser grips are indeed much thicker than the original P08 grips, there was a very good reason to do so.

Normal grips will shrink and develop some lateral play when mounted on the gun. Also, the old style grips are prone to damage, developing tears and chips (the 'million dollar chip') around the edges. The Mauser engineers sought for a method whereby the wooden grips could be attached to the grips in a more secure and durable way.

The first attempt used small brass pins, inset in the grip edges, so they would catch behind the frame edges. The drawback of this construction was that there had to be enough material along the edges in order to get a decent working surface. This created the rather thick grips.

Their second attempt worked better and provided smoother grips, more along the line of the old grip shape. They introduced a small metal spiked pin in the middle of the frame. The grips, when pushed (or 'impaled') onto this little spike would be unable to move and would not need the additional wood around the edges.

So I wouldn't say the Mauser engineers 'lost the art'. They just tried different methods to improve on a rather poor original design.

Personally, I would have ditched the wooden grips and switched to plastic, though. In my opinion, on a technical point of view, the best luger grips ever are still the East German VoPo grips. Light, strong, efficient, comfortable and designed in such a way that there is enough free space between the grips and the frame/magazine follower.

[Sieger]

Hi:

Though an excellent statement of historical fact, I believe that Mauser failed to improve on the original design of the Parabellum's grips.


Here are some of my additional thoughts for a good hardy laugh:


"Although the Mauser grips are indeed much thicker than the original P08 grips, there was a very good reason to do so.


The originals are not all that bad, when they are properly oiled and cured, annually. They may have wished to "fix" the original design, but instead, they destroyed it, as the original design was made to fit in the human hand and give one of the most natural pointability characteristics ever devised.


"Normal grips will shrink and develop some lateral play when mounted on the gun. Also, the old style grips are prone to damage, developing tears and chips (the 'million dollar chip') around the edges.


The "million dollar chip" is usually caused by that little area being put under an unusual amount of stress, usually because the original grips were not properly fitted to the particular pistol to begin with. Luger grips, like most other parts of the pistol, are a precision execution.


"The first attempt used small brass pins, inset in the grip edges, so they would catch behind the frame edges. The drawback of this construction was that there had to be enough material along the edges in order to get a decent working surface. This created the rather thick grips.


To my German friends I say that the young Mauser Engineers were "like pigs looking into a watch". A child could have come up with a better system. Hell, they could have just glued them to the frame!


"Their second attempt worked better and provided smoother grips, more along the line of the old grip shape. They introduced a small metal spiked pin in the middle of the frame. The grips, when pushed (or 'impaled') onto this little spike would be unable to move and would not need the additional wood around the edges.


Perhaps an actual adult made this attempt, sad as it is. Mauser Parabellum grips are substandard compared to the originals in precision execution, so another quick fix was attempted. It also failed, but not so noticeably as the first.


"So I wouldn't say the Mauser engineers 'lost the art'. They just tried different methods to improve on a rather poor original design.


They failed, and suffered the consequences of their failure in that the public never really accepted these Parabellums, back in the 1970s, when they were not considered collectors items.

"Personally, I would have ditched the wooden grips and switched to plastic, though. In my opinion, on a technical point of view, the best luger grips ever are still the East German VoPo grips. Light, strong, efficient, comfortable and designed in such a way that there is enough free space between the grips and the frame/magazine follower."


Wood isn't a 21st century material for a pistol grip, but then again, is the Luger a 21st century pistol? A nice set of wood grips, properly fitted to a Luger is a beautiful thing to behold!!!


Sieger

[HisSoldier]

I did notice that the left grip on my 9MM is flatter in the center than on my .30 cal 6" P-08. I bought a set of new ebay walnut checkered grips and hope to fit them, I'll save the original grips for whoever buys it from the estate some day. The 7.65 X 6" grips look much better, the radius at the edges are much larger. The wood is better looking also, as is the checkering.

[Vlim]

Sieger,

There is no use discussing the beauty or ethics of something. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But you can try to look upon the design and history with a somewhat less biased and more objective approach. Heck, even August Weiss liked the idea and the concept of the 1970s version. So in the end, the 1970's Parabellum is just that: A Parabellum, made by Mauser in the 1970s.

Hissoldier: you may find that fitting P08 grips to a Mauser Parabellum will be a bit of a challenge.

[JD]

Just a note on the Interarms Mauser grips. Our own Hugh does a fantastic job reshaping and recheckering the original grips so that they make the gun feel much more like the original P-08. Hugh did this to the grips of both of my Interarms Mausers and I must say that his work is above first rate!!!! The difference in the feel and handling of the guns has been markedly improved...

You can see photos of the reshaped and recheckered grips here: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...rips+interarms

[Sieger]

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren
Sieger,

There is no use discussing the beauty or ethics of something. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But you can try to look upon the design and history with a somewhat less biased and more objective approach. Heck, even August Weiss liked the idea and the concept of the 1970s version. So in the end, the 1970's Parabellum is just that: A Parabellum, made by Mauser in the 1970s.

Hissoldier: you may find that fitting P08 grips to a Mauser Parabellum will be a bit of a challenge.

Dear Friend:

You are one of our most technically gifted and knowledgable members, and of course, my opinions do not reflect on your ability or knowledge of the facts and subject matter.

My opinions are mine, of course, but I feel that many familiar with the subject matter may agree with them.

In a world of generally accepted mediocrity, the original design stands out as a testament to engineering genius, not to be tampered with by amateurs to follow in subsequent generations.

When I hold or fire a Mauser Parabellum, the thought that goes through my mind, on every occasion, is just how odd the pistol feels in my hand compared to the original design, that's it, plain and simple.

With respect,

Sieger

[Vlim]

Hi Sieger,

Hey, no problem. We will agree to disagree

And it's not that I think the 'thick' grips are an improvement, as they are certainly not. But I think it is interesting to look at the reasons behind the changes and try to understand the line of thought (not always logical) that lurks behind them.

If someone has the gun with the second type of grips (with the small central pin holding them in place), it shouldn't be too hard to optimize the shape. The brass pins of the first variations will not allow for much material to be removed from the edges.

[HisSoldier]

Here is a photo of the two variations, the 7.65 MM X 6" barrel is on the right.http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...n/P1010025.jpg

The RH grip on the 9MM is "flat" and the checkering is not good quality. The grips on the 7.65 are much nicer.

[HisSoldier]

Here is an image from a flatter angle, hoping others will be able to see how flat the left grip is. I can't figure out how to make the images show up, just the URL.