Bulgarian 08 Crests

LugerVern · 02-01-2009, 10:46 AM

I posted this on the other fourm but didnt get any interest so will post this information here instead.

Bulgarian 08's come in two series the No Suffix and the "C" suffix
each of about 5000 guns. Common belief is that the "C" suffix range came after the No Suffix range but a study of the crests suggests that just the opposite is true and that the "C" suffix range is the first series.

The attached picture shows several crests, if you look closely there are two different variations and that a broken die occurs in the No Suffix range.

Hope you find this interesting

Vern

Ron Wood · 02-01-2009, 12:04 PM

What part of the crest is broken?

drbuster · 02-01-2009, 12:44 PM

Vern, you have presented a very interesting array of 1908 Bulgarian crests, including mine (271c). I share Ron Wood's question about #38xx. Is it the outside border on each side? Also, I for one, would like to hear your detailed explanation of why "c" preceeded "ns". Thanks again for starting this thread.

LugerVern · 02-01-2009, 02:17 PM

DR/Ron

The broken die has sections missing on the right and left sections of the crown as Dr noted and if you look closely you will see that it has actually separated from the lower section.

This theory of the "C" suffix being the original series is based on the style of crest being broken. If this die came second then the "C" suffix guns would all have the newer variation of the crest and they do not.

Ever wonder why StillÃ¢??s SN 3877 looks so great, could be because itÃ¢??s a nearly new die?

If you exam Bulgarian rifles of the 1904 to 1909 time frame you will see that they have a large letter suffix after the serial number. This leads me to believe that the "C" suffix is something Bulgaria requested from the manufactures. Maybe a manufacture code or a designation for the gun itself.

What was it that the Germans originally called the Luger? DidnÃ¢??t it start with an Ã¢??SÃ¢?Â and Ã¢??CÃ¢?Â is the same as an Ã¢??SÃ¢?Â in Bulgaria. (Just a shot in the dark on this) .

It would be great if we could get more members to post pictures of their 08 BulgarianÃ¢??s , I know a lot of them are in bad shape from hard use. Until then this will be just an alternate theory but at least as good as the original one that the Ã¢??CÃ¢?Â is some sort of series designation.

At the very least we know for sure that there are two variations of 08 Bulgarian Dies and we have gained a little more knowledge.

Thanks for responding

Vern

sheepherder · 04-11-2016, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LugerVern

It would be great if we could get more members to post pictures of their 08 BulgarianÃ¢??s

It would be great if there were some pictures posted here so we could know what you guys are talking about...

John Sabato · 04-11-2016, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

It would be great if there were some pictures posted here so we could know what you guys are talking about...

F-i-x-e-d!
It would be great if there were ANY pictures posted here so we could SEE what you guys are talking about...

sheepherder · 04-11-2016, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

It would be great if there were ANY pictures posted here so we could SEE what you guys are talking about...

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Sorry guys, here's a sample of some representative crests.

Bwahahahaha!!! Pics posted to and linked from PhotoBucket!!!

Oh, I could see that coming!!!

jonnyc · 02-01-2009, 04:19 PM

Were any "Bulgarians" ever produced without the crest, and with the only markings being the serial number on the front left side?

Ron Wood · 02-01-2009, 05:46 PM

Not that I am disagreeing, but I would need a lot clearer photo of 38XX to state for sure that the die is broken. The vertical lines, such as the curved sides of the shield, are much less distinct due to the oblique lighting. If I blow the image up and exercise my imagination (

) I can almost convince myself that the sides of the crown are there. Note the "washed out" right side of the crown on #866 due to the angle and the lighting.

LugerVern · 02-01-2009, 11:51 PM

Ron

Its fine to challenge my theory

I do think the die is broken and separated across the top.

The data is very sparse but at least the theory is based on data and not grabbed from mid air.

Vern

spacecoast · 04-11-2016, 10:12 AM

I made a follow-up post to this inquiry over on the other Luger Forum if anyone would like to clarify or contribute.

Looking for clarification as to what LugerVern thought was broken and in which images.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...an-crest-study

spacecoast · 04-11-2016, 06:57 PM

Sorry guys, here's a sample of some representative crests.

DonVoigt · 04-11-2016, 09:51 PM

We had a somewhat similar discussion on the Erfurt "broken" crown; turns out that there were at least two dies in use and/or the broken one was replaced.

I would expect the same on the Bulgarian crest, if broken it would be replaced; and it is highly likely there would have been more than one die created. JMHO.

spacecoast · 04-11-2016, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Bwahahahaha!!! Pics posted to and linked from PhotoBucket!!!

Oh, I could see that coming!!!

Sorry, I don't follow... ???

sheepherder · 04-11-2016, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Sorry, I don't follow... ???

Here is a recent post by Super Moderator John Sabato -

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
Attach your photos directly to your post by using the "Go Advance" button to make your post entry. Then there is a "manage attachments" button to allow you to post your photos.

Photos that are hosted elsewhere, often disappear when the hosting website reorganizes its holdings, or goes out of business.

In addition, many of the more knowledgeable people on this forum are unable to see your photos posted elsewhere because they access the forum from their place of employment where internet web storage sites are filtered or prohibited. If they can't see your photos, they can't offer comments or advice.

Thanks, and welcome to the Lugerforum.

And here is why -

spacecoast · 04-12-2016, 08:37 AM

No problem, I've modified my post accordingly. Obviously, this needs to be a little more obvious in the standard picture attachment dialog.

sheepherder · 04-12-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecoast

No problem, I've modified my post accordingly. Obviously, this needs to be a little more obvious in the standard picture attachment dialog.

The vBulletin code may not be editable; and to his credit, John tries to inform everyone who links that it is desirable to attach pics drirectly to the post/thread. Vern [Lugervern] is also at fault in this particular thread - he states that there is an attached picture, where there isn't. Bad Vern!

Even if the pics are attached here on Lugerforum, sometimes changes in the forum software "lose" the attached pics. Many of the threads I chase down prior to 2002 lack pics even though the code shows that they were once attached to the post here.

Lots of members here are loathe to post pictures; I have no idea why. I like to take pics of anything I do, so I can refer to them later. Sometimes I forget how to do something, or think I've come up with a better/easier/cheaper way, and I like to have something to refer to.

There's no easy way to indoctrinate new (or old) members. You just have to keep knocking it into them.

$.02

Sergio Natali · 04-12-2016, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spacecoast

Sorry guys, here's a sample of some representative crests.

I think I enclose a picture of the Bulgarian crest on mine.

spacecoast · 04-12-2016, 03:09 PM

Thanks very much Sergio, this is the crest from your #3395?

Mark

Ben M. · 04-12-2016, 06:45 PM

access the forum from their place of employment

sure employers want staff to do work and not hobbys

02-01-2009, 10:46 AM	#1
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Bulgarian 08 Crests I posted this on the other fourm but didnt get any interest so will post this information here instead. Bulgarian 08's come in two series the No Suffix and the "C" suffix each of about 5000 guns. Common belief is that the "C" suffix range came after the No Suffix range but a study of the crests suggests that just the opposite is true and that the "C" suffix range is the first series. The attached picture shows several crests, if you look closely there are two different variations and that a broken die occurs in the No Suffix range. Hope you find this interesting Vern

02-01-2009, 12:04 PM	#2
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	What part of the crest is broken? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-01-2009, 05:46 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Not that I am disagreeing, but I would need a lot clearer photo of 38XX to state for sure that the die is broken. The vertical lines, such as the curved sides of the shield, are much less distinct due to the oblique lighting. If I blow the image up and exercise my imagination () I can almost convince myself that the sides of the crown are there. Note the "washed out" right side of the crown on #866 due to the angle and the lighting. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

04-11-2016, 06:57 PM	#12
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	Sorry guys, here's a sample of some representative crests. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by spacecoast; 04-12-2016 at 08:36 AM.

04-11-2016, 09:51 PM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	We had a somewhat similar discussion on the Erfurt "broken" crown; turns out that there were at least two dies in use and/or the broken one was replaced. I would expect the same on the Bulgarian crest, if broken it would be replaced; and it is highly likely there would have been more than one die created. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

02-01-2009, 12:44 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Vern, you have presented a very interesting array of 1908 Bulgarian crests, including mine (271c). I share Ron Wood's question about #38xx. Is it the outside border on each side? Also, I for one, would like to hear your detailed explanation of why "c" preceeded "ns". Thanks again for starting this thread.

02-01-2009, 02:17 PM	#4
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	DR/Ron The broken die has sections missing on the right and left sections of the crown as Dr noted and if you look closely you will see that it has actually separated from the lower section. This theory of the "C" suffix being the original series is based on the style of crest being broken. If this die came second then the "C" suffix guns would all have the newer variation of the crest and they do not. Ever wonder why StillÃ¢??s SN 3877 looks so great, could be because itÃ¢??s a nearly new die? If you exam Bulgarian rifles of the 1904 to 1909 time frame you will see that they have a large letter suffix after the serial number. This leads me to believe that the "C" suffix is something Bulgaria requested from the manufactures. Maybe a manufacture code or a designation for the gun itself. What was it that the Germans originally called the Luger? DidnÃ¢??t it start with an Ã¢??SÃ¢?Â and Ã¢??CÃ¢?Â is the same as an Ã¢??SÃ¢?Â in Bulgaria. (Just a shot in the dark on this) . It would be great if we could get more members to post pictures of their 08 BulgarianÃ¢??s , I know a lot of them are in bad shape from hard use. Until then this will be just an alternate theory but at least as good as the original one that the Ã¢??CÃ¢?Â is some sort of series designation. At the very least we know for sure that there are two variations of 08 Bulgarian Dies and we have gained a little more knowledge. Thanks for responding Vern

02-01-2009, 04:19 PM	#8
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Were any "Bulgarians" ever produced without the crest, and with the only markings being the serial number on the front left side?

02-01-2009, 11:51 PM	#10
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	Ron Its fine to challenge my theory I do think the die is broken and separated across the top. The data is very sparse but at least the theory is based on data and not grabbed from mid air. Vern

04-11-2016, 10:12 AM	#11
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	I made a follow-up post to this inquiry over on the other Luger Forum if anyone would like to clarify or contribute. Looking for clarification as to what LugerVern thought was broken and in which images. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...an-crest-study

04-12-2016, 08:37 AM	#16
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	No problem, I've modified my post accordingly. Obviously, this needs to be a little more obvious in the standard picture attachment dialog.

04-12-2016, 03:09 PM	#19
spacecoast User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: FL and PA Posts: 332 Thanks: 276 Thanked 243 Times in 109 Posts	Thanks very much Sergio, this is the crest from your #3395? Mark

04-12-2016, 06:45 PM	#20
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	access the forum from their place of employment sure employers want staff to do work and not hobbys