1917 Erfurt

[Jon]

I have a 1917 Erfurt Luger thats in great condition, altough not totally matched (2 parts). I was curious if anyone knew an approximate value, as Im considering selling it.

There is no such thing as "totally matched" or "partially matched." A Luger is either matched or it isn't. Yours is not, so it qualifies as a shooter, or parts gun. Good shooters are worth a few hundred bucks to somebody, I guess.

[Thor]

Lugers that are considered a matched Luger will normally have several INTERNAL parts serialized to the gun as well, such as the firing pin and hold open device. If you dont field strip the gun, you wont know if these two internal parts match also. Most sellers dont want you to disassemble their Lugers. ~Thor~

[Thor]

The previous comment was FYI for the new Luger buyers/shooters/collectors and not to you Herbet as you seem to know this stuff already! Thor

[Thor]

Right, non matching Lugers!! Well, it seems like a common occurance is to see a Luger that has a mismatched sideplate with the remainder of the gun matched up. Any theories why this happened? I understand why we dont see too many matched magazines to guns but the sideplate mismatch has always been a quandry to me! Thor

Respectfully Disagree. There has been a lot of this kind of advise including in the FAQ section of this forum. I submit the following observations:

1. Any Luger with a "mismatched magazine" is not completly matched, but I can assure anyone that does not destroy thier "collectability". I will buy all Mag mismatched 98% original finish Lugers as "shooters" for $400 ea from any fool willing to take that. In other words matching is and can be measured by degree.

2. Any Luger (or 98k or 1860 Colt Army etc...) with original finish (either factory original or military rework origin) even with some or in some cases all parts mismatched is a legit and correct collectors example for the context in which it was used after re-build. Example--a 1917 made 03 Springfield rifle that is rebarreled,re-stocked, re-finished in 1943 is a valid example of a WWII depot re-rebuild Springfield rifle...no argument. The same is true of cut down Navy Lugers, Police Lugers etc.. I don't care what Luger "collecters" like or don't like, it doesn't change historical context of a piece ...end of story. Every piece must be evaluated on it's individual merits and this always has some subjectivity to it.

3. If one has to collect Mint guns maybe they should consider commemoratives...they are worth about the same today as they were 30 years ago and they they don't have all of that bad ole wear, tear and parts replacement that occured regularly on combat used guns.

4. I simply recommend that everyone stand back a bit and evaluate the overall integrity of the piece before they write a Luger off as not worthy of a collection. Consider if mm sideplates were as common as mm magazines, would mm sideplates disqualify a Luger from collecter status? I hardly believe it would. But because they do not pervail on 75% of the Lugers around it (mm sideplate)becomes a discrimminater and in fact a wall between a collection Luger and a candidate for trashing out.

My 12:59 post was not meant in response to your 3 post...I was writing while you were posting! I have often wondered about the sideplate deal as well (notice I used it in my previous post). I think a lot of GI's mixed them up and I could not rule out an occasional German field replacement to a lost one or a mix up by troops not paying attention..I'm sure they were trained to make they sure to keep numbered parts togeather but I bet mix ups occured anyway.

[Thor]

What a pity! Just something else to drive us Luger guys (and gals, including my wife) crazy! Thanks for the input! Thor

[Jon]

So, Is this gun worth anything?

[Craig]

Jon,

I would think with the current "import" reblued and mismatched lugers going for $400-$500 your original finish Erfurt should be worth at least that.

Craig

[Orv Reichert]

I was told a number [more than 50] of years ago, that removing a sideplate was a common method of making a Luger safe for transport and 'child-proof'. It will not function without the plate.


I was also told that surrendering Germans often removed the plate at that time to assure that the gun could not be used against them at once.


It was also said to be a common method of 'safing' the gun for long term storage just as some folks are now removing the bolts from rifles and hiding them...[which results in estate sales of rifles with no bolts!]


I have no documented proof...just stories. But, like you, I had wondered why it was so commonly mismatched?


My other question is....why are P38 locking blocks, likewise, the most common mismatched part on a P38?

[Johnny Peppers]

I would think that it is quite evident that a Luger with a mis-matched magazine is not totally matching. However, a matching pistol with a mis-matched magazine is much more collectible than a Luger with a mis-matched small part. Many completely matching Lugers exist, and completely matching rigs also exist. While an arsenal rebuilt weapon has collectibility, it will never approach the collectibility of a completely original matching weapon. The problem with arsenal rebuilt weapons is that there is no evidence that the rebuild was actually done in an arsenal or in someone's garage. The M1D Rifle is a good example of this. Every M1D Rifle was converted from a standard M1 Rifle, and every part that it took to build the M1D has been available on the market for years. The DCM and CMP have sold quite a few of the M1D's in the past several years, and the paperwork is the only assurance that you have a US arsenal built M1D.

There are no hard an fast rules as to what constitutes collectibility, as it means different things to different people. If some like factory new guns that is their game, and if others like guns that appear to have "been there" that is their game. One person cannot decide for someone else what to collect. You can only offer guidance when ask, and let the person decide for themselves.

Jon--I have to agree with BBC. Don't give it away. It surely is more valuable than a mismatch import selling for $450 to $500. It is not impossible to find a matching side plate.

I am in your age bracket Orv, and have heard the same stories. I had nine uncles that went to Europe. They had no reason to lie to me. Regards locking blocks; I have replaced quite a few used by shooters that were using too-hot handloads. Have replaced a lot of top covers and rear sights also.

[Kyrie]

Hi Orv,


Alas, the story that the side plate was removed to make the pistol safe is untrue :-(


The cannon of a Luger is a fully functional firearm in and of itself. Removing the side plate just exposes the sear bar plunger and the front of the sear bar. If there is a round in the chamber pressure on the sear bar plunger or the front of the sear bar will cause the cannon to discharge.


Moreover, the side plate and trigger bar were hand fitted parts. Swapping side plates between Lugers can create Lugers that cannot be fired, or that fire with light (or no) pressure on the trigger.


Field striping a Luger results in three parts assemblies; the frame assembly, the cannon assembly, and the side plate assembly. The side plate assembly is by far the smallest and the easiest to lose - which IMHO is why so many side plates are mismatched.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Jon,


Yes sir, it is - shooter value. Roughly somewhere between $200 - $500, depending on mechanical and cosmetic condition. It just doesnâ??t have any collector value :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks!


Letâ??s not confuse â??collectableâ?� and â??collector value.â?� In a world where people collect scraps of used tin foil and pieces of string just about anything is collectable


Mismatched Lugers (excluding those with only mismatched magazines) have no collector value. Thatâ??s the market reality. Comparisons of Luger collecting to the collecting of US arms are not valid. US military arms come from a tradition of fully machine made firearms with all parts interchangeable. Thatâ??s the reason small parts on US military firearms are not numbered. Lugers come from a very different tradition - firearms produced with a great deal of hand fitting of parts to individual firearms, making parts interchangeability low.


The collectors of US military firearms (like the â??03 Springfield) have no way of ever knowing if the parts that compose their rifle have been replaced by a previous owner - and donâ??t care. Luger collectors can know if a Luger has been altered by a previous owner, and do care.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Orv Reichert]

In some countries, I am told, the upper unit is considered a gun for that reason. I know that you can press on the side and make it fire.


As an aside, they talk about what a terrible/unsafe gun the Jap [may I say Jap?...or is it like Kraut?] T-94 is because it is unsafe...but the Luger is not...and they both can be fired by pressing on the side!

Lugers with mismatched magazines but all other parts matching have not been tampered with. Mismatched parts other than the magazine indicate the pistol has been tampered with. Perhaps it represents only a field repair, but it can just as easily be the result of clumsy amateur experimentation. It seems to me that all the owners of mismatched Lugers are coming out of the woodwork to defend what may be their not so desireable specimens. Kind of like defending one's wife even though you know in your heart she is really third rate.

[Luke]

It is not hard to imagine a side plate being lost during an emergency field strip for clearing out mud or dirt in a combat environment, especially if the soldier happened to be in a foxhole knee deep in water or mud.