1906 Argentine Navy Luger - refinishing questions

markbritt · 01-13-2010, 09:36 PM

I have been lucky enough to obtain a 1906 Argentina Contract Navy luger with 6 inch barrel and safety grip. The gun was purchased new in Argentina and remained in the family until the owners grandson (living in the US) was willed the gun. It took him some wrangling, but he successfully imported it into the US. The only problem is that the gun was reblued years ago in Argentina. The guy did a good job, but the normal 'strawed' luger parts (safety lever, ejector, mag catch, and locking bolt) are blued. The trigger is silver - probably had the straw buffed off. Aside from that, the gun is in great shape - all matching parts and grips. The magazine is Navy, but not numbered? The barrel has some Spanish writing on the top.

My question is this - were the safety lever, ejector, mag catch and locking bolt originally strawed? Since it has already been reblued, I was thinking of having them strawed so it would be back to original. Any help would be appreciated.

Also, any 'rough' idea on value for something like this? Here are a few pictures.

Additional Note: I have all the paperwork (about a 1/4" stack) showing the gun being exported from Argentina to the US. What a customs mess it was!! I will post more detailed pictures tonight.

Thanks,
Mark

Dwight Gruber · 01-13-2010, 09:52 PM

Is this gun c/B, c/U, c/G proofed?

--Dwight

Douglas Jr. · 01-14-2010, 08:33 AM

One important thing to avoid misunderstandings: there is no "Argentinian Contract Luger". The Armed Forces of that country tested the Luger around 1904-05 but never adopted it as an official sidearm. They choose first the Mannlicher Model 1905 and then, in 1914, went to the Colt Governmental pistol.

What you have here is a Commercial Navy, brought to Argentina by DWM's agent. Much more rare than a standard military Navy, as far as I know.

Dwight, from what I can see in the first picture, yes, the gun is BUG proofed.

Douglas.

sheepherder · 01-14-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Jr.

Dwight, from what I can see in the first picture, yes, the gun is BUG proofed.

+ 1

I am curious...Were the c/B, c/U, c/G proofs put on horizontally on all Navy's???

(Enlarged, lightened, and negatized pic attached)

markbritt · 01-14-2010, 10:57 AM

Guys:
I will put up more detailed pics tonight with the barrel inscription and the proofing.
Mark

alanint · 01-14-2010, 12:35 PM

The Spanish writing on the Barrel is not a goverment mark but the name and address of an arms dealer in Argentina, (perhaps the importer, similar to the US requirements).
The glare prevents a clear reading, but what I can make out is;

"Armeria ** Nortena" "611 Hivalda" or "Northern (something) Armory,, 611 Hivalda Street."

This is just assuming that this is an Argentine dealer and address, based on the information above. The Spanish used could be from any number of countries and the gun could have started life almost anywhere in South America, (except Brazil) and ended up in Argentina.

Ron Wood · 01-14-2010, 12:47 PM

Looks to me like it is "Armeria La Porteña / 611 Rivada..."

Dwight Gruber · 01-14-2010, 12:57 PM

c/B, c/U chamber marks are horizontal on all DWM c/BUG-proofed commercial pistols.

--Dwight

Douglas Jr. · 01-14-2010, 01:18 PM

Rivadavia is a major avenue in Buenos Aires.
Probably the dealer's address. I would love to know the serial number.

Douglas

Ron Wood · 01-14-2010, 02:11 PM

"I would love to know the serial number"

Me too. Thanks for the info on Rivadavia.

Douglas Jr. · 01-14-2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

"I would love to know the serial number"

Me too. Thanks for the info on Rivadavia.

I only knew that because I spent my honeymoon there back in 2007.

I still have the map that me and my Mrs. used to runaround in the streets.

Buenos Aires is a lovely place. It also has with an outstanding Military Museum, with lot of interesting pieces.

Douglas.

alanint · 01-14-2010, 05:42 PM

This is al correct. Buenos Aires residents consider themselves "Portenos", as Buenos Aires was and is the single largest port in Argentina.
Avenida Rivadavia is a major avenue and also a section of town.

I travel there often and posted an interesting Luger from the Military museum there about a year ago.

This is all obvious now but I could not make out the writing on the barrel from the photo.

markbritt · 01-14-2010, 10:09 PM

Hello:

Just posted 4 new pics. Would like an opinion an an approximate value and also if the items listed in the main post should normally be strawed.

Thanks,
Mark

Ron Wood · 01-15-2010, 08:53 AM

Can't help much with value, but the items listed in your first post should be strawed. It is fortunate that whoever re-blued the piece did not over buff it, it still looks pretty good.

alvin · 01-15-2010, 09:33 AM

To increase the value, simply restrawing small parts is not enough, professional restoration is needed. As I've noticed, people have different opinion on the process, but one thing for sure, value is increased with cost. Not sure value/cost ratio, probably 1 dollar in, 70 cents out? If for keeping, it's an option. If the purpose is for selling higher, that ratio has to be better. Again, I don't know the ratio.

Norme · 01-15-2010, 09:59 AM

Hi Mark, You have a rare and valuable gun and I think it deserves a ground up, professional restoration. Although,for the most part, the gun was not over buffed, the side plate looks "soft". In addition to strawed small parts, the gun should have a rust blue, not a salt blue finish. Regards, Norm

markbritt · 01-15-2010, 11:59 AM

Who would you recommend for a full restoration? I am realively new to the forum here. I would appreciate any assistance.

Thanks,
Mark

Norme · 01-15-2010, 12:54 PM

Hi Mark, I have never had any restoration done so have no first hand experience. However, if you go on the thread "1902 Fat Barrel Discovered" in the early Luger section,you will find a lengthy discussion of this issue. Be sure to save all that import documentation so that you can back up your gun's exotic history. If I thought there were more Lugers like that available in Argentina, I too would hike the Appalachian Trail! Regards, Norm

alanint · 01-15-2010, 01:21 PM

Actually, There used to be an unbelievable gun shop called "El Ciervo" on Paraguay Street in Buenos Aires. Two of the front three windows were nothing but the owner's Luger collection. I would estimate perhaps 200 Lugers, including virtually every major variation. Inside, the shop looked like an English turn of the 19th. century outfitter. Oak paneling throughout, palms, large overstuffed leather chairs, safari trophies and thousands of quality hunter and collector firearms. The modern gun section was no more than one glass case.

There was also an island glass case one could walk around, which contained perhaps 20 nazi era presentation firearms in their original presentation boxes. There were Sauers, Mausers, Walthers and one Luger. As a younger, more naive man I tried to broker these. I sent a major US dealer /Broker from Ill. data from each firearm including serials and all inscriptions. They all checked out with factory records, where available and among the guns were one that was presented to the head of Hitler's personal bodyguard. Another belonged to the Gauliter of Munich, etc. This dealer pumped me for weeks until he obviously pieced together the collection's location. Upon a subsequent visit to the store every presentation piece was gone and all they would tell me is they had all been sold to a US collector. This was in about 1989, when Argentina was suffering an economic collapse and treasures like these were coming out of the woodwork. Oh well, live and learn.
The store is sadly now gone and the fate of all those Lugers unknown to me. There are still vast firearm treasures to be had there, although, not at yesterday's prices

saab-bob · 01-15-2010, 04:36 PM

Alanint
Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear about you being squeezed out of that deal.

Bob

01-13-2010, 09:36 PM	#1
markbritt User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 240 Thanks: 5 Thanked 48 Times in 22 Posts	1906 Argentine Navy Luger - refinishing questions I have been lucky enough to obtain a 1906 Argentina Contract Navy luger with 6 inch barrel and safety grip. The gun was purchased new in Argentina and remained in the family until the owners grandson (living in the US) was willed the gun. It took him some wrangling, but he successfully imported it into the US. The only problem is that the gun was reblued years ago in Argentina. The guy did a good job, but the normal 'strawed' luger parts (safety lever, ejector, mag catch, and locking bolt) are blued. The trigger is silver - probably had the straw buffed off. Aside from that, the gun is in great shape - all matching parts and grips. The magazine is Navy, but not numbered? The barrel has some Spanish writing on the top. My question is this - were the safety lever, ejector, mag catch and locking bolt originally strawed? Since it has already been reblued, I was thinking of having them strawed so it would be back to original. Any help would be appreciated. Also, any 'rough' idea on value for something like this? Here are a few pictures. Additional Note: I have all the paperwork (about a 1/4" stack) showing the gun being exported from Argentina to the US. What a customs mess it was!! I will post more detailed pictures tonight. Thanks, Mark Attached Thumbnails Last edited by markbritt; 01-14-2010 at 10:08 PM.

01-14-2010, 08:33 AM	#3
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	One important thing to avoid misunderstandings: there is no "Argentinian Contract Luger". The Armed Forces of that country tested the Luger around 1904-05 but never adopted it as an official sidearm. They choose first the Mannlicher Model 1905 and then, in 1914, went to the Colt Governmental pistol. What you have here is a Commercial Navy, brought to Argentina by DWM's agent. Much more rare than a standard military Navy, as far as I know. Dwight, from what I can see in the first picture, yes, the gun is BUG proofed. Douglas. Attached Images Last edited by Douglas Jr.; 01-14-2010 at 08:36 AM. Reason: adding picture

01-14-2010, 12:47 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Looks to me like it is "Armeria La Porteña / 611 Rivada..." __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-14-2010, 02:11 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	"I would love to know the serial number" Me too. Thanks for the info on Rivadavia. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-15-2010, 08:53 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Can't help much with value, but the items listed in your first post should be strawed. It is fortunate that whoever re-blued the piece did not over buff it, it still looks pretty good. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-13-2010, 09:52 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Is this gun c/B, c/U, c/G proofed? --Dwight

01-14-2010, 10:57 AM	#5
markbritt User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 240 Thanks: 5 Thanked 48 Times in 22 Posts	Guys: I will put up more detailed pics tonight with the barrel inscription and the proofing. Mark

01-14-2010, 12:35 PM	#6
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The Spanish writing on the Barrel is not a goverment mark but the name and address of an arms dealer in Argentina, (perhaps the importer, similar to the US requirements). The glare prevents a clear reading, but what I can make out is; "Armeria ** Nortena" "611 Hivalda" or "Northern (something) Armory,, 611 Hivalda Street." This is just assuming that this is an Argentine dealer and address, based on the information above. The Spanish used could be from any number of countries and the gun could have started life almost anywhere in South America, (except Brazil) and ended up in Argentina.

01-14-2010, 12:57 PM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	c/B, c/U chamber marks are horizontal on all DWM c/BUG-proofed commercial pistols. --Dwight

01-14-2010, 01:18 PM	#9
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	Rivadavia is a major avenue in Buenos Aires. Probably the dealer's address. I would love to know the serial number. Douglas

01-14-2010, 05:42 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	This is al correct. Buenos Aires residents consider themselves "Portenos", as Buenos Aires was and is the single largest port in Argentina. Avenida Rivadavia is a major avenue and also a section of town. I travel there often and posted an interesting Luger from the Military museum there about a year ago. This is all obvious now but I could not make out the writing on the barrel from the photo.

01-14-2010, 10:09 PM	#13
markbritt User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 240 Thanks: 5 Thanked 48 Times in 22 Posts	Hello: Just posted 4 new pics. Would like an opinion an an approximate value and also if the items listed in the main post should normally be strawed. Thanks, Mark

01-15-2010, 09:33 AM	#15
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	To increase the value, simply restrawing small parts is not enough, professional restoration is needed. As I've noticed, people have different opinion on the process, but one thing for sure, value is increased with cost. Not sure value/cost ratio, probably 1 dollar in, 70 cents out? If for keeping, it's an option. If the purpose is for selling higher, that ratio has to be better. Again, I don't know the ratio.

01-15-2010, 09:59 AM	#16
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Mark, You have a rare and valuable gun and I think it deserves a ground up, professional restoration. Although,for the most part, the gun was not over buffed, the side plate looks "soft". In addition to strawed small parts, the gun should have a rust blue, not a salt blue finish. Regards, Norm

01-15-2010, 11:59 AM	#17
markbritt User Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 240 Thanks: 5 Thanked 48 Times in 22 Posts	Who would you recommend for a full restoration? I am realively new to the forum here. I would appreciate any assistance. Thanks, Mark

01-15-2010, 12:54 PM	#18
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Mark, I have never had any restoration done so have no first hand experience. However, if you go on the thread "1902 Fat Barrel Discovered" in the early Luger section,you will find a lengthy discussion of this issue. Be sure to save all that import documentation so that you can back up your gun's exotic history. If I thought there were more Lugers like that available in Argentina, I too would hike the Appalachian Trail! Regards, Norm

01-15-2010, 01:21 PM	#19
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Actually, There used to be an unbelievable gun shop called "El Ciervo" on Paraguay Street in Buenos Aires. Two of the front three windows were nothing but the owner's Luger collection. I would estimate perhaps 200 Lugers, including virtually every major variation. Inside, the shop looked like an English turn of the 19th. century outfitter. Oak paneling throughout, palms, large overstuffed leather chairs, safari trophies and thousands of quality hunter and collector firearms. The modern gun section was no more than one glass case. There was also an island glass case one could walk around, which contained perhaps 20 nazi era presentation firearms in their original presentation boxes. There were Sauers, Mausers, Walthers and one Luger. As a younger, more naive man I tried to broker these. I sent a major US dealer /Broker from Ill. data from each firearm including serials and all inscriptions. They all checked out with factory records, where available and among the guns were one that was presented to the head of Hitler's personal bodyguard. Another belonged to the Gauliter of Munich, etc. This dealer pumped me for weeks until he obviously pieced together the collection's location. Upon a subsequent visit to the store every presentation piece was gone and all they would tell me is they had all been sold to a US collector. This was in about 1989, when Argentina was suffering an economic collapse and treasures like these were coming out of the woodwork. Oh well, live and learn. The store is sadly now gone and the fate of all those Lugers unknown to me. There are still vast firearm treasures to be had there, although, not at yesterday's prices Last edited by alanint; 01-15-2010 at 02:33 PM.

01-15-2010, 04:36 PM	#20
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Alanint Very interesting story. Thanks for sharing. Sorry to hear about you being squeezed out of that deal. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"