Placement of Artillery sight

nukem556 · 02-05-2012, 07:46 PM

Something has puzzled me for a while....why didnt they place the rear sight for the Artillery in the back like a Navy? I'm assuming the rationale for the Artillery is for soldiers to be able to reach out at further distances than a normal pistol. The longest possible sight radius allows for better practical accuracy. If you look at it, a Navy actually has a LONGER sight radius!

sheepherder · 02-05-2012, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

...why didnt they place the rear sight for the Artillery in the back like a Navy?

Doesn't the carbine have the rear sight on the barrel as well???

I'd guess having the sight on a stable base was more important than a long sight radius...

nukem556 · 02-05-2012, 10:58 PM

yeah Rich, true about the production carbines, but the earliest ones had a rear mounted tangent sight....Teddy Roosevelts was such a model

DavidJayUden · 02-05-2012, 11:29 PM

The rear sight needs to be a ways away from the eye in order to be seen in focus. It becomes useless if you put a stock on and the rear sight is right in front of the eye. Not that a few inches does much good, at least not with these tired old eyes...
Now without the use of a shoulder stock, then you have a very good point.
dju

Ron Wood · 02-06-2012, 02:32 AM

The tangent mounted rear sights of the Navy and early carbine Lugers were much lighter and more robust than the ladder sights of the LP08 and could withstand the shock of the toggle action. There is no way that the heavy ladder type sight of the LP08 would have held up to the inertial forces imparted by the moving parts of the toggle assembly.

The increased sight radius necessary for precise aiming was achieved by the longer barrel of the “Artillery” Luger. The extreme range promised by the LP08 sight is certainly optimistic; however I would not want to be on the receiving end of a shot by a skilled marksman using the extended range offered by the LP08 sights.

DavidJayUden · 02-06-2012, 10:01 AM

When discussing the optimism of the 800M range of the LP08, let's not forget the strategic use of indirect fire at that time. Sometimes simply "raining down bullets" was part of the plan.
dju

Norme · 02-06-2012, 11:07 AM

There's a lot of interesting stuff about the development of the LP08 in the new Görtz/Sturgess book. Apparently it was initially intended for arming air crew as well as artillery men, and the testing commission reported that "one hit per eight shots fired could be expected at 500 meters, cockpit to cockpit". For ground use, head sized targets could be engaged at 600 meters, and standing targets at 800 meters. In penetration tests it was found that the 9mm parabellum round would pierce a French infantry helmet at 800 meters.
I can't believe that any of this is realistic, and if it hadn't been for the development of the drum magazine which enabled the LP08 to be an effective trench clearing tool, it would soon have been rendered obsolete. Regards, Norm

chromeed · 02-06-2012, 11:12 AM

I think I could hit a Zeppelin at 800 meters with my Artillery providid I attached the Stock and the 32 round Magazine.

DavidJayUden · 02-06-2012, 02:28 PM

Yes that So. America trip was quite an undertaking. Some say it is what ultimately killed TR. Can't be certain about that however both TR and KR came back from Africa in grand (comparitively speaking) shape.
dju

nukem556 · 02-06-2012, 02:11 PM

Ben.....sadly Roosevelt's Carbine has gone missing, presumably stolen by persons unknown. There is a picture in the Geortz/Sturgess "Pistole Parabellum" of TR's son Kermit
carrying it through the jungle during their epic South American expedition. It can be seen to have the early non-ramped front sight and the rear tangent mounted sight.

As a side point, the expedition was a mammoth undertaking, a grand and dangerous adventure ( see the 3rd book in Edmund Morris' great biography of TR) . Kermit proved himself worthy of his great father, and probably was the only reason TR survived the ordeal.

Ron Wood · 02-06-2012, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M.

nukeum 556,

could you provide more info about the roosevelt carbine. particularly how we know what configuration. has this carbine shown up?

The case for the carbine still exists, I think in the Springfield museum but I could be wrong. The impression of the rear tangent sight is clearly visible in the case.

02-05-2012, 07:46 PM	#1
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Placement of Artillery sight Something has puzzled me for a while....why didnt they place the rear sight for the Artillery in the back like a Navy? I'm assuming the rationale for the Artillery is for soldiers to be able to reach out at further distances than a normal pistol. The longest possible sight radius allows for better practical accuracy. If you look at it, a Navy actually has a LONGER sight radius!

02-06-2012, 02:32 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	The tangent mounted rear sights of the Navy and early carbine Lugers were much lighter and more robust than the ladder sights of the LP08 and could withstand the shock of the toggle action. There is no way that the heavy ladder type sight of the LP08 would have held up to the inertial forces imparted by the moving parts of the toggle assembly. The increased sight radius necessary for precise aiming was achieved by the longer barrel of the “Artillery” Luger. The extreme range promised by the LP08 sight is certainly optimistic; however I would not want to be on the receiving end of a shot by a skilled marksman using the extended range offered by the LP08 sights. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-06-2012, 11:12 AM	#8
chromeed User Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: North Georgia Posts: 81 Thanks: 1 Thanked 27 Times in 9 Posts	I think I could hit a Zeppelin at 800 meters with my Artillery providid I attached the Stock and the 32 round Magazine. __________________ Ed Reimbold I Need: For my 1936 P-08 Mag #5800 will trade Mag Al Stamped Blue #6859 k Straight Eagle 655 & #3502 n+St Eagle 63 For my 1917 Artillary Wood Mag #9220 I have #3392 f +

02-05-2012, 10:58 PM	#3
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	yeah Rich, true about the production carbines, but the earliest ones had a rear mounted tangent sight....Teddy Roosevelts was such a model

02-05-2012, 11:29 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The rear sight needs to be a ways away from the eye in order to be seen in focus. It becomes useless if you put a stock on and the rear sight is right in front of the eye. Not that a few inches does much good, at least not with these tired old eyes... Now without the use of a shoulder stock, then you have a very good point. dju

02-06-2012, 10:01 AM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	When discussing the optimism of the 800M range of the LP08, let's not forget the strategic use of indirect fire at that time. Sometimes simply "raining down bullets" was part of the plan. dju

02-06-2012, 11:07 AM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	There's a lot of interesting stuff about the development of the LP08 in the new Görtz/Sturgess book. Apparently it was initially intended for arming air crew as well as artillery men, and the testing commission reported that "one hit per eight shots fired could be expected at 500 meters, cockpit to cockpit". For ground use, head sized targets could be engaged at 600 meters, and standing targets at 800 meters. In penetration tests it was found that the 9mm parabellum round would pierce a French infantry helmet at 800 meters. I can't believe that any of this is realistic, and if it hadn't been for the development of the drum magazine which enabled the LP08 to be an effective trench clearing tool, it would soon have been rendered obsolete. Regards, Norm

02-06-2012, 02:28 PM	#9
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Yes that So. America trip was quite an undertaking. Some say it is what ultimately killed TR. Can't be certain about that however both TR and KR came back from Africa in grand (comparitively speaking) shape. dju

02-06-2012, 02:11 PM	#10
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Ben.....sadly Roosevelt's Carbine has gone missing, presumably stolen by persons unknown. There is a picture in the Geortz/Sturgess "Pistole Parabellum" of TR's son Kermit carrying it through the jungle during their epic South American expedition. It can be seen to have the early non-ramped front sight and the rear tangent mounted sight. As a side point, the expedition was a mammoth undertaking, a grand and dangerous adventure ( see the 3rd book in Edmund Morris' great biography of TR) . Kermit proved himself worthy of his great father, and probably was the only reason TR survived the ordeal.