When was it made?

OldPilgrim · 12-11-2014, 07:38 PM

Hi guys,

A brand new, first time Luger owner here. I've been collecting guns for quite a few years have wanted a Luger for many years. Finally got one to go with my P38.

I just got a nice DWM, all matching numbers everywhere, 3 5/8 (?) barrel, crown over N, Germany marked version. Crown over N is on many parts. What's confusing to me is the crown is squat like the crown on the Navy versions, not like the taller crown with the N under it (Nitro proof) that shows in the Std Catalog pictures. It sure looks like the crown of the Navy version with the M under it but has the N instead of the M.

It has a wooden bottom mag, but the number on it doesn't match the gun number.

Sorry I can't get a decent pic of it at the moment.

It's all original, not refurbished/reblued and in very good condition, showing less than average wear.

Serial number is 8261 i .

I know how the numbering system works 1-10000 then the letter, but I can't find anything anywhere that says what years had what number/letter combination.

Can any point me to a place where I can find that info or tell me when it was made.

I've been reading everything I can get my hands on. I've just about memorized the Std Catalog, and still looking for more.

TIA

alvin · 12-11-2014, 07:50 PM

The instance that I have matches Std Catalog's picture OK. I have no doubt it's correct, because this variation is not hot at all, usually used by fake makers as "raw material". I have never heard anyone saying another variation was found converted by professionals into this variation. C/N like this..

Yours not like this?

Mine was made in 1920s. 23, maybe. It's the only Luger in my collection at this time. I like it.

OldPilgrim · 12-11-2014, 08:08 PM

yes, mine is like that.

But if you look at the SCat picture, the crown (C/N) appears a lot taller than than that. Compare that to the SCat's picture of the Navy Crown/M. It looks a lot closer.

alvin · 12-11-2014, 08:17 PM

I don't have Navy. But from Std Catalog picture, yes, the crown and M on Navy looks little bit closer than the crown and N on this variation. C/N printed on Std Catalog is not taller in my eyes, looks being same thing.

mrerick · 12-11-2014, 08:48 PM

You most likely have a DWM Alphabet commercial made about 1921 or 1922.

These Weimar era pistols started in the "i" block.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 12-11-2014, 08:50 PM

Alvin, you use Aarons book..... ??

Anyway, things are not as cut and dry with suffixes. Pictures of markings - pictures of front of frame

Likely made mid 1920's, but we are guessing here....

alvin · 12-11-2014, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Alvin, you use Aarons book..... ??

No. I heard Aaron's book. If I remembered right, it has so many errors,,, but it has its use to test collector's knowledge on Lugers. But, you know, I am not really a Luger collector, so no need to buy that book for that special exercise

Standard Catalog of Firearms, was a price guide. Old editor was Dan Shideler, I heard he passed away a few years ago. I used it a lot for pricing guideline. It's interesting that many Luger and Mauser pictures in the book were offered by Gale Morgan. He must have seen a lot, probably a collector himself too, so have many pictures.

Pictures in Std Catalog is for very rough identification purpose, not for collectors. Serious Luger collector still need to get collector grade books.

OldPilgrim · 12-11-2014, 08:51 PM

I'm looking at the ebook version of the SCat, so maybe that's the problem with what I see.

I'll assume that mine is 'normal' as I expect that I have nothing special.

I was wondering about the barrel length as well as the serial number date ranges. Seems like most are 4 inch but this is definitely in the 3 5/8" area.

I'll try to get some pics soon.

OldPilgrim · 12-11-2014, 09:36 PM

I hope this doesn't violate any copyrights. If it's an issue, can a mod tell me or delete it with my apologies.

See why I was confused?

alvin · 12-11-2014, 10:00 PM

Hand drawing,,,, this is too distorted, far away from actual shape of stamps. This type drawing can only be used for rough identification, but not for size, proportion, nor position study. Why didn't author takes pictures, that would be way more accurate than this type of hand drawing, and with less effort.

Norme · 12-11-2014, 10:50 PM

Hi Dennis, A couple of points: Barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the face of the breech block. The easiest way to measure this is to insert something thin, like a drinking straw, until it hits the beech block. The illustrations you show of C/ M and C/N marks are laughably out of proportion. It sounds like you have a pretty common Commercial Luger with a 3 7/8th" barrel made in the 1920's.
Regards, Norm

OldPilgrim · 12-11-2014, 11:02 PM

Yup, measuring the 'correct way' it's 3 7/8.

Give me a Smith and Wesson, and I can tell you everything you could want to know. These are brand new to me and I feel like a kid in kindergarten.

Thanks everyone.

alvin · 12-11-2014, 11:06 PM

Great. Question on S&W: why did its wheel turning in the opposite direction of Colt revolvers? What's the advantage of running the wheel this way? Thanks

mrerick · 12-12-2014, 01:00 AM

Avoiding patent infringement?

OldPilgrim · 12-12-2014, 01:09 AM

No one really seems to know how it happened. I've heard all minds of reasons like patent issues, clockwise means a stronger lockup, faster loading. Don't ask why the last two reasons would be valid.

I like:

Because they can,

If there's two people doing things,they'll do them differently,

And my favorite:

Looking downward upon the northern hemisphere the rotation of the earth is counter-clockwise. Thus, if living in the northern hemisphere, a cylinder rotating counter-clockwise would not be fighting against the earth's rotation and would turn faster, leading to quicker shots. Ruger and Smiths rule here. Of course if one lived in the southern hemisphere the opposite would be true, so for the fastest revolver shots there one should choose a Colt revolver.

Colt actually made guns that turned ccw, the Army and Navy models, supposedly at the request of the Navy.

I understand that a new model of a SW turns cw like the Colts.

It appears that most makers use the SW rotational direction.

Also consider that Colt is barely in business now. A true sw aficionado might blame their situation on the rotation of their revolvers.

alvin · 12-12-2014, 04:31 AM

It's off topic, but since we're here anyway...

I heard a story saying S&W originally also had a clockwise rotating wheel, just like Colt. In 18xx (forgot the exact year), a government procurement personnel advised them "if you change the rotation direction, you will win the contract". So S&W did that. Finally, they did not win that contract, but that rotation pattern was kept and they did not change it back. So, in this story, the change was not tech driven, it's more customer driven. S&W just followed an advice with intention to gain some business. Probably that's also the reason they did not bother to change it back: either way works, cost too much to change back and forth.

But this is just one version of stories on this. There are other stories.

Customer driven theory might be applied to some other unexplainable changes on other type of guns,,,, I guess.

Dwight Gruber · 12-12-2014, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldPilgrim

...the crown is squat like the crown on the Navy versions, not like the taller crown with the N under it (Nitro proof) that shows in the Std Catalog pictures. It sure looks like the crown of the Navy version with the M under it but has the N instead of the M...

The drawings of the markings presented in Davis's "Standard Catalog of Lugers" look nothing like the actual markings found on Luger pistols. It is not possible to assess a Luger's markings based on this source. You have found one example of the many shortcomings which make this book useless as a reference book for Luger collecting. Here is a link to a review http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ighlight=books.

Here is a discussion on Luger books http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ighlight=books.

The four digit/letter suffix was common to most Luger production, but the production date it denotes varies with manufacturer and production era. Your pistol is of DWM commercial manufacture, referred to by collectors as an Alphabet Commercial. The i suffix indicates that it was made in 1921.

--Dwight

Sergio Natali · 12-12-2014, 09:59 AM

Dennis

Welcome to his forum made of LUGER enthusiasts.
You've probably got a nice gun, an "alphabet commercial" Luger made by DWM presumably in 1921/1922, not that scarce at all but still a nice Luger.
To take a short cut and get most detailed informations about it, the best thing would be for you to post some close pictures of it.

Sergio

Lugerdoc · 12-12-2014, 10:25 AM

The DWM commercial lugers made after WW1 were susposed to have less than 100mm (4") barrels to comply with Versailes Tready restrictions. TH

OldPilgrim · 12-12-2014, 10:53 AM

thanks to everyone.

The gun is in pretty decent shape, not perfect but better than you'd expect for a 90+ year old gun. It was cared for, but not pampered.

My camera is a little dated but I'll try to get some pics sometime.

I hope to add a Broomhandle to my collection some day...if I live long enough.

12-11-2014, 07:38 PM	#1
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	When was it made? Hi guys, A brand new, first time Luger owner here. I've been collecting guns for quite a few years have wanted a Luger for many years. Finally got one to go with my P38. I just got a nice DWM, all matching numbers everywhere, 3 5/8 (?) barrel, crown over N, Germany marked version. Crown over N is on many parts. What's confusing to me is the crown is squat like the crown on the Navy versions, not like the taller crown with the N under it (Nitro proof) that shows in the Std Catalog pictures. It sure looks like the crown of the Navy version with the M under it but has the N instead of the M. It has a wooden bottom mag, but the number on it doesn't match the gun number. Sorry I can't get a decent pic of it at the moment. It's all original, not refurbished/reblued and in very good condition, showing less than average wear. Serial number is 8261 i . I know how the numbering system works 1-10000 then the letter, but I can't find anything anywhere that says what years had what number/letter combination. Can any point me to a place where I can find that info or tell me when it was made. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on. I've just about memorized the Std Catalog, and still looking for more. TIA

12-11-2014, 07:50 PM	#2
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	The instance that I have matches Std Catalog's picture OK. I have no doubt it's correct, because this variation is not hot at all, usually used by fake makers as "raw material". I have never heard anyone saying another variation was found converted by professionals into this variation. C/N like this.. Yours not like this? Mine was made in 1920s. 23, maybe. It's the only Luger in my collection at this time. I like it. Attached Thumbnails

12-11-2014, 08:48 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	You most likely have a DWM Alphabet commercial made about 1921 or 1922. These Weimar era pistols started in the "i" block. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-11-2014, 08:50 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Alvin, you use Aarons book..... ?? Anyway, things are not as cut and dry with suffixes. Pictures of markings - pictures of front of frame Likely made mid 1920's, but we are guessing here.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-12-2014, 01:00 AM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Avoiding patent infringement? __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-11-2014, 08:08 PM	#3
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	yes, mine is like that. But if you look at the SCat picture, the crown (C/N) appears a lot taller than than that. Compare that to the SCat's picture of the Navy Crown/M. It looks a lot closer.

12-11-2014, 08:17 PM	#4
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I don't have Navy. But from Std Catalog picture, yes, the crown and M on Navy looks little bit closer than the crown and N on this variation. C/N printed on Std Catalog is not taller in my eyes, looks being same thing.

12-11-2014, 08:51 PM	#8
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'm looking at the ebook version of the SCat, so maybe that's the problem with what I see. I'll assume that mine is 'normal' as I expect that I have nothing special. I was wondering about the barrel length as well as the serial number date ranges. Seems like most are 4 inch but this is definitely in the 3 5/8" area. I'll try to get some pics soon.

12-11-2014, 09:36 PM	#9
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I hope this doesn't violate any copyrights. If it's an issue, can a mod tell me or delete it with my apologies. See why I was confused?

12-11-2014, 10:00 PM	#10
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Hand drawing,,,, this is too distorted, far away from actual shape of stamps. This type drawing can only be used for rough identification, but not for size, proportion, nor position study. Why didn't author takes pictures, that would be way more accurate than this type of hand drawing, and with less effort.

12-11-2014, 10:50 PM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Dennis, A couple of points: Barrel length is measured from the muzzle to the face of the breech block. The easiest way to measure this is to insert something thin, like a drinking straw, until it hits the beech block. The illustrations you show of C/ M and C/N marks are laughably out of proportion. It sounds like you have a pretty common Commercial Luger with a 3 7/8th" barrel made in the 1920's. Regards, Norm

12-11-2014, 11:02 PM	#12
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yup, measuring the 'correct way' it's 3 7/8. Give me a Smith and Wesson, and I can tell you everything you could want to know. These are brand new to me and I feel like a kid in kindergarten. Thanks everyone.

12-11-2014, 11:06 PM	#13
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Great. Question on S&W: why did its wheel turning in the opposite direction of Colt revolvers? What's the advantage of running the wheel this way? Thanks

12-12-2014, 01:09 AM	#15
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	No one really seems to know how it happened. I've heard all minds of reasons like patent issues, clockwise means a stronger lockup, faster loading. Don't ask why the last two reasons would be valid. I like: Because they can, If there's two people doing things,they'll do them differently, And my favorite: Looking downward upon the northern hemisphere the rotation of the earth is counter-clockwise. Thus, if living in the northern hemisphere, a cylinder rotating counter-clockwise would not be fighting against the earth's rotation and would turn faster, leading to quicker shots. Ruger and Smiths rule here. Of course if one lived in the southern hemisphere the opposite would be true, so for the fastest revolver shots there one should choose a Colt revolver. Colt actually made guns that turned ccw, the Army and Navy models, supposedly at the request of the Navy. I understand that a new model of a SW turns cw like the Colts. It appears that most makers use the SW rotational direction. Also consider that Colt is barely in business now. A true sw aficionado might blame their situation on the rotation of their revolvers.

12-12-2014, 04:31 AM	#16
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	It's off topic, but since we're here anyway... I heard a story saying S&W originally also had a clockwise rotating wheel, just like Colt. In 18xx (forgot the exact year), a government procurement personnel advised them "if you change the rotation direction, you will win the contract". So S&W did that. Finally, they did not win that contract, but that rotation pattern was kept and they did not change it back. So, in this story, the change was not tech driven, it's more customer driven. S&W just followed an advice with intention to gain some business. Probably that's also the reason they did not bother to change it back: either way works, cost too much to change back and forth. But this is just one version of stories on this. There are other stories. Customer driven theory might be applied to some other unexplainable changes on other type of guns,,,, I guess.

12-12-2014, 09:59 AM	#18
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Dennis Welcome to his forum made of LUGER enthusiasts. You've probably got a nice gun, an "alphabet commercial" Luger made by DWM presumably in 1921/1922, not that scarce at all but still a nice Luger. To take a short cut and get most detailed informations about it, the best thing would be for you to post some close pictures of it. Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

12-12-2014, 10:25 AM	#19
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The DWM commercial lugers made after WW1 were susposed to have less than 100mm (4") barrels to comply with Versailes Tready restrictions. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

12-12-2014, 10:53 AM	#20
OldPilgrim User Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: SE Ma Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thanks to everyone. The gun is in pretty decent shape, not perfect but better than you'd expect for a 90+ year old gun. It was cared for, but not pampered. My camera is a little dated but I'll try to get some pics sometime. I hope to add a Broomhandle to my collection some day...if I live long enough.