Help ID commercial 12" barrel

n2oldguns · 08-13-2015, 01:58 AM

Hello everyone and thanks for the forum and all of your intelligent contributions. I have been gleaning some great stuff here. I wanted to ask if someone could tell me what I have here. I bought it because I like oddballs and this fit the bill. I also have a very modest collection of Lugers so this is hopefully my crown jewel. It appears to be in very good condition and is a .30 caliber.

I will describe it and try to post pictures as well.

The frame has a stock lug pistol grip, 5 digit serial number with no letter, matching numbered on the bottom of the takedown lever, plate, and toggle behind rear sight. There is a crown/N on the toggle as well as a DWM inscription. There is no date on the frame or any other markings. The barrel is unmarked and the rear sight is graduated from 1 to 8. The front blade sight appears to be an artillery type.

Unfortunately, the barrel is canted about 1mm and there are marks on the barrel where it appears someone has tried to turn it. I was also wondering If there is anyone on the board that could fix this for me. I would love to shoot this bad boy!

If anyone could give me their opinion as to the originality of the barrel and finish or knows some history of this oddball, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thank you all very much! Adam

DavidJayUden · 08-13-2015, 09:06 AM

Congratulations, you have reached the top of the Luger odd-ball world!
But seriously, there are several forum members doing the heavy 'smithing (G. T. LugerDoc), and I believe that you will be hearing from them soon.
I suspect that the barrel will need to come off first, assuming that it needs to go tighter, rather than looser.
This gun looks like fun.
dju

John Sabato · 08-13-2015, 10:22 AM

A Great looking oddball... once you have the barrel installation squared away, it should be much fun to shoot.

My only caution is that you should NOT attach a shoulder stock, as that would be illegal

as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) (since the barrel is under 16 inches)... unless you pre-register the gun with the BATFE and pay the $200 tax stamp in advance for making an SBR ...

Lugerdoc · 08-13-2015, 10:46 AM

Adam. You have what I would call a 1920s long barrelled commerical luger. Most of these that i have seen, have an unnumbered barrel and unique (elevator button pushed from right side) tangent rear sight assy. Both Stoeger & Pacific Arms Corp offered these add on long barrels from 10" to 24" in either 9mm or 7.65mmP. See Lugers at Random pages 186 & 187. TH

hayhugh · 08-13-2015, 11:41 AM

John you state "My only caution is that you should NOT attach a shoulder stock, as that would be illegal as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) (since the barrel is under 16 inches)... unless you pre-register the gun with the BATFE and pay the $200 tax stamp in advance for making an SBR ...

As long as I don't attach the shoulder board, it is legal to shoot? I have a 9mm 12" barrel that I have attached to a lower that I also attach a receiver for a .22 cal and a 30 luger receiver to. Will attach my set-up:

sheepherder · 08-13-2015, 11:52 AM

When you look down the barrel, is the front sight canted before or after the 12:00 o'clock position???

It appears to be only off a degree or two; if too far after 12:00 o'clock, the shoulder could be stippled to adjust the interference fit. If before, a bit of polishing or rubbing compound could possibly remove enough to make it fit correctly.

Easy fix. I would be more concerned with the surface where someone attempted to 'fix' it themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Adam. You have what I would call a 1920s long barrelled commerical luger. Most of these that i have seen, have an unnumbered barrel and unique (elevator button pushed from right side) tangent rear sight assy. Both Stoeger & Pacific Arms Corp offered these add on long barrels from 10" to 24" in either 9mm or 7.65mmP. See Lugers at Random pages 186 & 187. TH

+ 1

Like the LAR long-barreled 1920, yours also has the toggle rear sight as well as the artillery barrel rear sight. Does the toggle rear sight have a V notch? Can you tell if the barrel rear sight base is integral or soldered on? Kenyon comments on both styles.

Interesting. Might even be original DWM barrel. Looks like fun.

John Sabato · 08-13-2015, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayhugh

John you state "My only caution is that you should NOT attach a shoulder stock, as that would be illegal as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) (since the barrel is under 16 inches)... unless you pre-register the gun with the BATFE and pay the $200 tax stamp in advance for making an SBR ...

As long as I don't attach the shoulder board, it is legal to shoot? I have a 9mm 12" barrel that I have attached to a lower that I also attach a receiver for a .22 cal and a 30 luger receiver to. Will attach my set-up:

Perfectly legal to shoot this gun as a pistol, regardless of caliber or the barrel length. You tempt the federal law enforcers if you should "create" or "make" a SBR that is not registered. That would be a violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934, UNLESS you have paid the $200 tax.

You have something that is fairly unique. If it were mine, I would pay the tax, obtain a period and appropriate shoulder stock and increase it's uniqueness... Enjoy!

Sergio Natali · 08-13-2015, 12:52 PM

Adam

I just drop a line to say that although I don't know a fag about your country "National Firearms Act of 1934" and I' sure that John is quite well prepared to give you a correct advice... but I think you've got a really nice firearm, congrats.

Rgds

Sergio

n2oldguns · 08-13-2015, 04:10 PM

Thank you all for your informative and fast responses!

Sheepherder, the barrel is canted about 2 degrees to the right as you look down the barrel. I have attached a picture of the marks left by someone messing with it previously. I do not have any suitable gun smithing tools to tackle this job myself and would be afraid of screwing it up more if I did. The rear sight is fitted in a dove tail groove on the barrel and I do not see any sign of soldering. It would be great if we could determine if this was an original DWM barrel too. Thanks again.

dju- I am definitely looking forward to shooting this sucker. The long sight radius should make it a tack driver. I really enjoy shooting pistols past the ranges they were designed for and this one should do a good job if I do my part. Thanks for your comments.

John S.- Thanks for your comments and your caution. It would indeed be more fun with a stock with proper paper work, but I agree, not worth a trip to the joint without it. Your comment got me thinking though. I do have a Mauser C96 with original stock and it is listed as GCA exempt in the ATF curio and Relics manual. This would allow me to legally put the stock on and fire it without the SBR form. I took a look in the latest C&R manual and it has listed the following in Section III
, Guns removed from NFA and reclassified to C&R:

" Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistols as mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription Germany or Made in Germany on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks."

It seem that if I were to find an original stock of this era, I could use it without having to file the form to SBR the pistol. Thank you and you have got me doing some research!

Lugerdoc - The rear sight is exactly as you have described. It is good to know that this may have been deliberately put together and is an authentic "variation" rather than a one off constructed by a garage gunsmith. Unfortunately, I do not have Lugers at Random in the library yet but will try to reference that book. Do you do this type of work to fix these problems? I would be afraid to take it to just any gunsmith in my area.

Sergio - Thanks for the comment, I am pretty excited about this one too!

Thanks again to all of you for your advice and comments. Adam

sheepherder · 08-13-2015, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n2oldguns

Sheepherder, the barrel is canted about 2 degrees to the right as you look down the barrel.

There are several ways to correct this, none of them difficult. Gerry Tomek/Olle Fornehad have the skills + tools. They might be interested.

DavidJayUden · 08-13-2015, 04:21 PM

Regarding your finding an exemption in the GCA of 1934, I'm thinking that they mean an original design 8" artillery barrel, not a 12" barrel with an artillery style rear sight. My moto is to always stay safely inside of the gun control laws and avoid walking near that fine line...
But there is a special division within the BATF that you could contact in writing and request a ruling. Just avoid possessing an artillery stock until the matter is resolved (unless you also own a correct 8" artillery model Luger too.)
dju

Diver6106 · 08-13-2015, 05:01 PM

Since the barrel is slightly twisted, does the extractor fit in the barrel notch? To correct the twist might require some machine work, beyond just rotating the barrel. I'm also working on a 'Black Forest Carbine', but I have a 16 1/2" barrel, so no SBR cert needed. Then there is always the issue of adding a forend below the barrel and attachment to the frame, without paying thousands. Although carbine stocks, other than the flat military style, have been selling for thousands on the auction sites. I think the least expensive way may be to buy a stock attachment for about 1-2 hundred, and then an old wooden stock and machine the stock for the fitting.

n2oldguns · 08-13-2015, 05:03 PM

DJU- I agree whole heartedly with your statement as to err on the side of caution. Perhaps I could request clarification from the ATF on this. I could also be happy shooting the gun as a pistol. Thanks again.

Sheepherder - Thanks for your comments, the pipe wrench is definitely a bummer. You are also correct in they the barrel sleeve is integral with the barrel. Perhaps someone on the board would take a crack at this job. I do have a C&R license so the pistol could be shipped quite easily. I did look at your sticky post on removing barrels... very informative.

Thanks Guys! Adam

n2oldguns · 08-13-2015, 05:14 PM

Thanks for the reply Diver. The cost of an original stock and the hassle of writing to the ATF technical branch to get it OK'd (if ok'd) for the C&R exemption will in all honesty be more time and money that it would be worth it for me. The SBR with a repro stock or original stock could be a possibility though. I wish you the best of luck in your project though. A 16.5" barrel is surely worthy of having some type of stock!

Lugerdoc · 08-13-2015, 05:57 PM

Adam, If I were you, I'd check to see if BATF would consider your 1920s 12" a carbine without forearm, making it legal with a repro carbine type stock, without any fee or reclasification. TH

DavidJayUden · 08-13-2015, 06:52 PM

On those damaged spots, you may be able to carefully file down just the high spots caused by the wrench, and then touch the filed spots up with some cold bluing.
But Diver asks a good question: how does the extractor fit now with the barrel canted and what will it take to fit it once the barrel is uncanted?
Might be interesting to shoot it now and see how it prints on paper.
dju

sheepherder · 08-13-2015, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by n2oldguns

Perhaps someone on the board would take a crack at this job.

Gerry and Olle both do this sort of thing as a business. (Tom possibly still does also).

n2oldguns · 08-13-2015, 09:55 PM

I took a look at the extractor and it fits in the chamber potion of the barrel just fine. I can clearly see where the barrel could be turned just a mm or less counter clockwise and it would be in straight alignment with the frame. I have not checked the headspace however. I could live with the pipe wrench marks but the canted sights I think will drive me crazy. If I could have the barrel turned to remove the marks that would be great if I did not have to re-blue the whole barrel. Are the barrels on the Luger right hand threaded?

Lugerdoc - Your idea is a good one and makes good sense. I think I will write a letter to ATF technology branch and see if I can get a letter of clarification. If I do and the response is positive, I will be happy to share a copy of this so others that have something similar would be able to use a stock as well without fear of breaking the law. Thanks for the suggestion

n2oldguns · 08-13-2015, 10:00 PM

There is a photo of the current sight picture.

Lugerdoc · 08-14-2015, 11:04 AM

I am no longer changing luger barrels and recommend both GT or Olle. Thanks for the mention. Tom

08-13-2015, 01:58 AM	#1
n2oldguns User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Help ID commercial 12" barrel Hello everyone and thanks for the forum and all of your intelligent contributions. I have been gleaning some great stuff here. I wanted to ask if someone could tell me what I have here. I bought it because I like oddballs and this fit the bill. I also have a very modest collection of Lugers so this is hopefully my crown jewel. It appears to be in very good condition and is a .30 caliber. I will describe it and try to post pictures as well. The frame has a stock lug pistol grip, 5 digit serial number with no letter, matching numbered on the bottom of the takedown lever, plate, and toggle behind rear sight. There is a crown/N on the toggle as well as a DWM inscription. There is no date on the frame or any other markings. The barrel is unmarked and the rear sight is graduated from 1 to 8. The front blade sight appears to be an artillery type. Unfortunately, the barrel is canted about 1mm and there are marks on the barrel where it appears someone has tried to turn it. I was also wondering If there is anyone on the board that could fix this for me. I would love to shoot this bad boy! If anyone could give me their opinion as to the originality of the barrel and finish or knows some history of this oddball, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you all very much! Adam Attached Images

08-13-2015, 10:22 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	A Great looking oddball... once you have the barrel installation squared away, it should be much fun to shoot. My only caution is that you should NOT attach a shoulder stock, as that would be illegal as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) (since the barrel is under 16 inches)... unless you pre-register the gun with the BATFE and pay the $200 tax stamp in advance for making an SBR ... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-13-2015, 10:46 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Adam. You have what I would call a 1920s long barrelled commerical luger. Most of these that i have seen, have an unnumbered barrel and unique (elevator button pushed from right side) tangent rear sight assy. Both Stoeger & Pacific Arms Corp offered these add on long barrels from 10" to 24" in either 9mm or 7.65mmP. See Lugers at Random pages 186 & 187. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-13-2015, 11:41 AM	#5
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 857 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	John you state "My only caution is that you should NOT attach a shoulder stock, as that would be illegal as a Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) (since the barrel is under 16 inches)... unless you pre-register the gun with the BATFE and pay the $200 tax stamp in advance for making an SBR ... As long as I don't attach the shoulder board, it is legal to shoot? I have a 9mm 12" barrel that I have attached to a lower that I also attach a receiver for a .22 cal and a 30 luger receiver to. Will attach my set-up: Attached Thumbnails

08-13-2015, 12:52 PM	#8
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Adam I just drop a line to say that although I don't know a fag about your country "National Firearms Act of 1934" and I' sure that John is quite well prepared to give you a correct advice... but I think you've got a really nice firearm, congrats. Rgds Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

08-13-2015, 09:06 AM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Congratulations, you have reached the top of the Luger odd-ball world! But seriously, there are several forum members doing the heavy 'smithing (G. T. LugerDoc), and I believe that you will be hearing from them soon. I suspect that the barrel will need to come off first, assuming that it needs to go tighter, rather than looser. This gun looks like fun. dju

08-13-2015, 04:10 PM	#9
n2oldguns User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thank you all for your informative and fast responses! Sheepherder, the barrel is canted about 2 degrees to the right as you look down the barrel. I have attached a picture of the marks left by someone messing with it previously. I do not have any suitable gun smithing tools to tackle this job myself and would be afraid of screwing it up more if I did. The rear sight is fitted in a dove tail groove on the barrel and I do not see any sign of soldering. It would be great if we could determine if this was an original DWM barrel too. Thanks again. dju- I am definitely looking forward to shooting this sucker. The long sight radius should make it a tack driver. I really enjoy shooting pistols past the ranges they were designed for and this one should do a good job if I do my part. Thanks for your comments. John S.- Thanks for your comments and your caution. It would indeed be more fun with a stock with proper paper work, but I agree, not worth a trip to the joint without it. Your comment got me thinking though. I do have a Mauser C96 with original stock and it is listed as GCA exempt in the ATF curio and Relics manual. This would allow me to legally put the stock on and fire it without the SBR form. I took a look in the latest C&R manual and it has listed the following in Section III , Guns removed from NFA and reclassified to C&R: " Luger, the 1920 Commercial Artillery model, pistols as mfd. by DWM or Erfurt, having undated chambers, commercial proofmarks, and bearing the inscription Germany or Made in Germany on the receiver and accompanied by original, German mfd., artillery type, detachable wooden shoulder stocks." It seem that if I were to find an original stock of this era, I could use it without having to file the form to SBR the pistol. Thank you and you have got me doing some research! Lugerdoc - The rear sight is exactly as you have described. It is good to know that this may have been deliberately put together and is an authentic "variation" rather than a one off constructed by a garage gunsmith. Unfortunately, I do not have Lugers at Random in the library yet but will try to reference that book. Do you do this type of work to fix these problems? I would be afraid to take it to just any gunsmith in my area. Sergio - Thanks for the comment, I am pretty excited about this one too! Thanks again to all of you for your advice and comments. Adam Attached Images

08-13-2015, 04:21 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Regarding your finding an exemption in the GCA of 1934, I'm thinking that they mean an original design 8" artillery barrel, not a 12" barrel with an artillery style rear sight. My moto is to always stay safely inside of the gun control laws and avoid walking near that fine line... But there is a special division within the BATF that you could contact in writing and request a ruling. Just avoid possessing an artillery stock until the matter is resolved (unless you also own a correct 8" artillery model Luger too.) dju

08-13-2015, 05:01 PM	#12
Diver6106 User Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Mt. Vernon VA Posts: 244 Thanks: 1,424 Thanked 117 Times in 75 Posts	Since the barrel is slightly twisted, does the extractor fit in the barrel notch? To correct the twist might require some machine work, beyond just rotating the barrel. I'm also working on a 'Black Forest Carbine', but I have a 16 1/2" barrel, so no SBR cert needed. Then there is always the issue of adding a forend below the barrel and attachment to the frame, without paying thousands. Although carbine stocks, other than the flat military style, have been selling for thousands on the auction sites. I think the least expensive way may be to buy a stock attachment for about 1-2 hundred, and then an old wooden stock and machine the stock for the fitting.

08-13-2015, 05:03 PM	#13
n2oldguns User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	DJU- I agree whole heartedly with your statement as to err on the side of caution. Perhaps I could request clarification from the ATF on this. I could also be happy shooting the gun as a pistol. Thanks again. Sheepherder - Thanks for your comments, the pipe wrench is definitely a bummer. You are also correct in they the barrel sleeve is integral with the barrel. Perhaps someone on the board would take a crack at this job. I do have a C&R license so the pistol could be shipped quite easily. I did look at your sticky post on removing barrels... very informative. Thanks Guys! Adam

08-13-2015, 05:14 PM	#14
n2oldguns User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Thanks for the reply Diver. The cost of an original stock and the hassle of writing to the ATF technical branch to get it OK'd (if ok'd) for the C&R exemption will in all honesty be more time and money that it would be worth it for me. The SBR with a repro stock or original stock could be a possibility though. I wish you the best of luck in your project though. A 16.5" barrel is surely worthy of having some type of stock!

08-13-2015, 05:57 PM	#15
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Adam, If I were you, I'd check to see if BATF would consider your 1920s 12" a carbine without forearm, making it legal with a repro carbine type stock, without any fee or reclasification. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]

08-13-2015, 06:52 PM	#16
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	On those damaged spots, you may be able to carefully file down just the high spots caused by the wrench, and then touch the filed spots up with some cold bluing. But Diver asks a good question: how does the extractor fit now with the barrel canted and what will it take to fit it once the barrel is uncanted? Might be interesting to shoot it now and see how it prints on paper. dju

08-13-2015, 09:55 PM	#18
n2oldguns User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	I took a look at the extractor and it fits in the chamber potion of the barrel just fine. I can clearly see where the barrel could be turned just a mm or less counter clockwise and it would be in straight alignment with the frame. I have not checked the headspace however. I could live with the pipe wrench marks but the canted sights I think will drive me crazy. If I could have the barrel turned to remove the marks that would be great if I did not have to re-blue the whole barrel. Are the barrels on the Luger right hand threaded? Lugerdoc - Your idea is a good one and makes good sense. I think I will write a letter to ATF technology branch and see if I can get a letter of clarification. If I do and the response is positive, I will be happy to share a copy of this so others that have something similar would be able to use a stock as well without fear of breaking the law. Thanks for the suggestion

08-13-2015, 10:00 PM	#19
n2oldguns User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	There is a photo of the current sight picture. Attached Images

08-14-2015, 11:04 AM	#20
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I am no longer changing luger barrels and recommend both GT or Olle. Thanks for the mention. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 [email protected]