MEN 124gr.

[Clay James]

Anyone else tried this? It's made by MEN in Germany. Found some locally and my P08 and P38 seem to like it. It's claimed to be NATO spec but doesn't have the cross and isn't loaded to +p so it's safe for the older pistols. I've fired 3 boxes so far and it's very clean, consistent, quality ammo. Plus it's nice to fire German made rounds through these German pistols

[DavidJayUden]

Is NATO spec. hotter than sporting spec, i.e. Winchester white box?
dju

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Is NATO spec. hotter than sporting spec, i.e. Winchester white box?
dju

that is what I have read - hotter than 9mm

[ithacaartist]

Here are some stats from a thread on The Highroad forum https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...istics.803193/

men 9B
124 gr Nato
XDS 3.3"
low 1074 fps
High 1114 fps
AV 1089 fps
ES 39.18 fps
SD 13.19
string X 8rnds

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Here are some stats from a thread on The Highroad forum https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...istics.803193/

men 9B
124 gr Nato
XDS 3.3"
low 1074 fps
High 1114 fps
AV 1089 fps
ES 39.18 fps
SD 13.19
string X 8rnds

W-W white box for 115gr says 1190fps. Velocity doesn't equal pressure; you figure a 124gr is a bit more pressure.

Still, MEN doesn't sound too bad.

[DonVoigt]

Those don't look like "Nato specs", which are closer to 1300 fps, IIRC.

Maybe only the 124 gr weight of the bullet is = to the Nato.

[rhuff]

I am not familiar with that ammo but if the AV is 1089FPS, then you should be fine. Good mainsprings are paramount for active Luger shooters, just like in other handguns.

[mrerick]

So, with the 124gn bullet, you would expect standard velocity 9mm Luger (as loaded by Winchester with W-231 powder) to be 920fps to a max of 1037fps. Higher velocity is +P or Nato pressure in that bullet weight, and inappropriate for a Luger.

Case: Winchester
Twist: 1:10"
Primer: CCI 500, Small Pistol
Barrel Length: 4"
Trim Length: .750"


Bullet Weight124 GR. BERB HBRN TP

Starting Loads
Maximum Loads

Manufacturer
Powder
Bullet Diam.
C.O.L.

Grs.
Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure

Grs.

Vel. (ft/s)

Pressure


Winchester
231
.356"
1.150"

3.9
920
27,400 PSI

4.4
1,037
31,900 PSI

[ithacaartist]

Here's another tidbit from the same Highroad thread.

The problem is that seeking a "NATO Spec" is chasing something that does not exist.

The governing document for 9x19 ammunition is STANAG (Standardization Agreement) 4090, which addresses ammunition interchangeability, including cartridge dimensions and barrel dimensions, but leaves a wide scope in the ammunition itself for national preferences.

See: http://www.scribd.com/doc/60112455/S...Cartridge-9x19

Briefly, bullet weight must be 108 gr. to 128 gr.; muzzle energy NLT 400 ft. lbs, NTE 600 ft. lbs.; working pressures NTE 37,000 psi; maximum NTE 42,700 psi. Muzzle velocity is not addressed, nor is any minimum pressure, except that it must function the approved weapons.

In other words, the STANAG is a performance and interchangeability spec. They didn't care about details as long as every round bearing the NATO symbol would work in all NATO weapons without damaging the weapons, and would give the required lethality.

Jim


Jim K, May 3, 2016

These guys are not focused specifically on Lugers, but the link to the actual specs might be useful. Not that this guy's interpretation is necessarily accurate, but it does give the impression that the designation 'NATO" is a little more elusive or complex or inclusive than one might imagine.

[mrerick]

Of course, it didn't exist back when our Lugers were designed, but the American standards (SAAMI) are published and in detail:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_...wnload/205.pdf

See P.17.

Specs for 9mm standard velocity cartridges show an average of 35,000 PSI with a probable maximum of 37,800 PSI.

+P is average 38,500 PSI with max of 41,500 PSI.

As you can see, the NATO definition exceeds SAAMI SV specifications, and approaches +P.

But what were our Lugers designed to handle? For that you have to go to the early design documents and definition of the 9mm Luger cartridge.

I'll get to my Sturgess books and update this when I've checked.