Replacing springs

[JimD]

What is the general opinion of replacing springs in shooter Lugers? The two I shoot are a 1920 Commercial in .30 and a 1936 S/42. Even though the Germans were really good at metallurgy and heat treating it seems to me that replacing 80-100 year old springs with new ones is cheap insurance. The Wolff kit comes with mainspring, firing pin spring, trigger spring and extractor spring. The guns function fine but I don't want to batter them with springs that may have taken a set.

Should any of the other springs be addressed?

[ithacaartist]

I'd say it depends on whether or not the gun functions well (in addition to passing the "tape test." There is some wisdom in the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

If other springs are in need of a change, they will have their ways of letting you know about it!

[kurusu]

I'm yet to see a modern Luger spring that matches the durability and quality of the originals.

[Zorba]

I'm not an expert, and I don't play one on the Internet...

BUT

I *always* replace the recoil spring at the very least on *any* new-to-me semi auto pistol just as soon as I get it. The only exception was my recently acquired Broomhandle, and that was only because the seller of same had replaced it within recent memory.

Springs are cheap, pistols are not. Even if the original spring was originally better - so what? That was 70 years (or more) ago. Springs are cheap, that spring in the pistol may or may not be original anyway. Springs are cheap, you could replace the entire set every year and not spend the money the next cheapest part costs for decades. Springs are cheap.

Dem's my thoughts on the subject - as a tyro, I admit I could be wrong - but it works for me.

[DonVoigt]

Wolf springs for the luger are "all over the place" with respect to length and "power".
You may or may not be improving your situation.

As you can see from the chart, the Germans(or someone) could not exactly make up their mind what spring was needed! JMHO.
Of particular note are the springs for the 1920 and 1923 commercial lugers- 7,65mm and 9mm the same-but '20 and '23 are different from each other, as the kids say- "go figure". I realize these are from measurement and may not be totally reliable, but are offered to put mainspring variations out for consideration!

I have used Wolf springs, but only after measurement. The first Wolf "Kit" I bought had 3 different stregnth mainsprings or was supposed to; the 34 lb spring was longer and stronger than the 38 lb- at least the way they were labeled.

If you must mess with your spring, take it out, measure the wire diameter and number of turns and the free length. Compare with the table that is available.

Then decide what to do, and by all means compare the "new" spring to the old and the chart.

[Rick W.]

Jim,

I have to admire the craftsmanship and knowledge that goes into the Luger assembly. Materials have changed I think over the years. That said, the Luger materials have weathered a lot of storms. People tell me that making a spring has its nuiances, when you get done, either you have a spring or you don't.........

I shoot my Lugers; what a pleasure that is. With each new one to me acquired, I am just accustomed to replacing the recoil spring at a minimum. I use Wolff just because I have some and been ok with them. I have noticed that some of the Wolff recoil springs are longer, but seemed to work for me.

If I was pondering such, I would certainly buy or build a recoil tool like some shown on this forum, kinda an awl looking affair with a bend at the nose. Gives you leverage for the coil spring compression. Of course, if you are handy; make your own. I used a pair of pliers and a rod for years, but cannot say that was intelligent, worked; but not intelligent.

Did I mention safety glasses, folks(user or helpers) only get one set of peepers.

I would examine the ramps for galling from the toggles hitting the ramps abbynormally hard and the area of the frame behind the toggle(just above the lanyard loop) for bite. Some guns will give some mark(two side by side marks on the frame), some will be well bitten. The tape test visited here during a firing session will help judge, as will your hand during firing (sting).

Some will tailor reloads or ammo to the pistol. I prefer to handload myself, and will tune the load to just function from the magazine and then a bit more.

Wolff may offer 36,38,40lb rates for Lugers. I have only used the 38lb in my Lugers, I have 36's for 30's, but never used them in the 30 Luger or the 7.65x19 wildcat. Perhaps my lot of springs was ok; I never worried about it, worked.

The other spring I would look at is the extractor spring. See if the extractor can clear an empty shell in the chamber. The spring stack up in my opinion has to be able to allow the nose of the extractor over the case rim without springing of the extractor itself. If the extractor starts acting like a primary spring, because the little spring is too long and stack up jam occurs, the extractor will probably start to fracture and fail. Easy to do, could save an expensive part.

I think the recoil mechanism is fairly complex as are most autoloaders. The recoil spring is a major player in all of this, but the condition of the rails(tightness, sprung) will contribute to the friction resistance. Another is the ammo load itself, way up there in pressure works great but batters, too low......jams. Kinda like the 3 bears and their bowls of porridge huh?

The leaf springs for the sear and the ejector itself. I just test for tension ability and the ability to move like they should in range. Harder to find than coil springs, I have replaced one sear spring that went out into the blue(snapped) at the range one time.

I remember some discussion about making new coil recoil springs on this forum, you might try a quickie search if so interested

Rick W.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Did I mention safety glasses, folks(user or helpers) only get one set of peepers.

This very thought occurred to me the other day, whilst I was re-assembling a 1911 recoil spring plug...The barrel bushing was tight, and the Colt bushing tool slipped off. The plug caromed off the side of my head and has not yet been found.

I was able to get a new plug from Numrich [$26]. But it was a close call.

[G.T.]

Hi to all, a lot of what makes a spring live is covered in the design, and the quality of materials? If a spring is design to work at max load and full compression every time, it will eventually, and continually weaken and sooner or later break?... The initial loss of length is called taking a set, and all coil springs do this to some extent. On the other hand, a spring that always operates in the middle of its work range will last for thousands of cycles, maybe even tens of thousands of cycles... But, Luger coil springs do not enjoy that luxury! Especially the main spring and extractor spring.... The Luger springs were engineered to fit a specific space to address a certain work load that was/is close to max performance demands with every cycle... It would be an interesting experiment to put in a new spring, and measure it at 0 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, and 1000rounds... any significant change in length after 1000 rounds would probably dictate a change is needed... I know that the tape test is good for calibrating loads, but it doesn't really tell you witch is the culprit/ I find that a Luger with a weak or failing mainspring will not close consistently on the following round?.. New mainspring, and pow! Right back to normal function... best to all, til....lat'r.....GT ....

[JimD]

This has been a very good discussion and has given me a lot to think about. After reading dome of the comments I disassembled my two shooters and noticed virtually no wear on the inside of the frames where the rear of the breech bolt would contact during recoil. The exterior of the frame, under the duck bill, has the typical wear marks but they are mostly blue wear with little or no metal wear. I think I'll leave the springs as they are for now and monitor the wear to the guns.

I do a LOT of gun work and wear reading glasses to see what I'm doing. But they also double as safety glasses. Always wear them when working with springs.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi to all, a lot of what makes a spring live is covered in the design, and the quality of materials? If a spring is design to work at max load and full compression every time, it will eventually, and continually weaken and sooner or later break?... The initial loss of length is called taking a set, and all coil springs do this to some extent. On the other hand, a spring that always operates in the middle of its work range will last for thousands of cycles, maybe even tens of thousands of cycles... But, Luger coil springs do not enjoy that luxury! Especially the main spring and extractor spring.... The Luger springs were engineered to fit a specific space to address a certain work load that was/is close to max performance demands with every cycle... It would be an interesting experiment to put in a new spring, and measure it at 0 rounds, 10 rounds, 100 rounds, and 1000rounds... any significant change in length after 1000 rounds would probably dictate a change is needed... I know that the tape test is good for calibrating loads, but it doesn't really tell you witch is the culprit/ I find that a Luger with a weak or failing mainspring will not close consistently on the following round?.. New mainspring, and pow! Right back to normal function... best to all, til....lat'r.....GT ....

GT,
About ten years ago, we were going to work on a main spring project together. Any update here?

Sieger

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

This very thought occurred to me the other day, whilst I was re-assembling a 1911 recoil spring plug...The barrel bushing was tight, and the Colt bushing tool slipped off. The plug caromed off the side of my head and has not yet been found.

I was able to get a new plug from Numrich [$26]. But it was a close call.

That 1911 recoil spring plug is about .45 caliber if I remember correctly... so you can now say you have shot yourself in the temple with a .45 and survived...

[Rick W.]

Bob,

When I re-spring a Luger, I will reach for the bag of 38 lb Wolff springs; I pay no attention as to 30 or 9mm chambering. Just one opinion. I have never clipped a coil off a Luger replacement spring fwiw. I have 36 lb and 40 lb springs, but all they do is gather dust so far. As you, I try to cater the load of the day to the desires of the firearm itself, and try not to beat the pistol apart during shooting(enjoying it). Hot loads will run a Luger at times, but the contact surfaces pay for it.........sooner or later. Super hot loads in a Luger always bothered me because of the cuts int he chamber entry, ie a form of gapspace....just a remembrance, nothing else there.

Due to old habits with Lugers, I never load more than 5 in the magazine, old magazines/cracked wood made me a believer fwiw.

My Luger loads are probably in the middle range of published reference reloading data. I use 80 to 100 gr bullets(30 cal) and Unique powder. Unique has gotten a bit cleaner but still not as good in clean as newer powders, but I still have cannisters of it to use up. I have started to venture into resizing 312 bullets down to 309 for flexibility, jury is still out, but at least trying to be open minded.

It takes a bit of hand strength to change the recoil spring in a Luger, the tool like you see here on the forum made similar to an bent awl will give you leverage. The note above on safety glasses I am sure you will heed for all of us, being a shooter type; sight is precious even if one does not have a lot of time.

I have not used factory ammo for years other than carry qualifications, and that was for a cocked/locked 1911 45acp.

One might query and look at the ejector nose/fitment, used guns sometimes surprise the buyers......like me. Things I would have never thought of, I saw in some preowned guns............after I bought of course.

I use the tape test mentioned here on the forum to check for excessive movement rearward of the toggle mechanism. Not all inclusive, but better than just using the feel in the hand(sting). I have the old notion that heavy toggle slap to the frame surfaces will eventually cause issues to said frame and user.

[4 Scale]

My understanding from some reading and talking to those more expert than myself is that high quality coil springs, such as used in Lugers, do not wear out progressively. I.e., they do not become weaker or lose tension over time during normal use. Like any other part of the pistol they can break, suffer corrosion and the like but these can be detected by inspection. On any Luger purchase I disassemble and inspect all parts under magnification.

I replace or adjust springs if inspection or improper function indicates a need. Otherwise, I leave the springs alone. The Luger is a balanced system and replacing springs on a properly functioning pistol may degrade function, requiring further action to restore function.

[Schutzenbob]

I'm in a quandary.....but I think the correct way to handle it, would be to replace the mainspring. I recently bought a 1920 Commercial 7.65 which is in excellent + condition, but has a very stiff mainspring. My normal reloads, and including some factory Fiocchi ammo, won't cycle at all; the breech comes back and cocks, but then slams the fired case back into the chamber. I'm guessing that someone put a 9mm spring in it. I really don't want to load-up hotter ammo. Your comments will be much appreciated.

[DonVoigt]

Bob,
post pictures of the "damage".

DWM used the same spring for .30 and 9mm at times. See the attached chart.
Factory Fiocchi(some boxes/lots/variants) are know to be "weak" and won't fully function a luger.
Try some PPU(Privi Partizan)- they usually work.

[Schutzenbob]

These are some dividers I bought at a yard sale which had been modified, and so I repurposed them. This is an easy way to remove or replace a mainspring, and you don't have to be Charles Atlas to do it;

[tomaustin]

Always, Always, Always wear your safety goggles.....springs have a habit of "springing" away in a heartbeat........

[rhinemann]

Schtzenbob,
Interesting tool you have modified to remove the main spring. I would have never thought of using a divider to do this task.

Jeffrey

[4 Scale]

Fiocchi in .30 Luger is too short to properly feed in some Luger actions. It is also too weak to correctly operate many Luger actions. Prvi Partisan ammo is longer and a bit stronger. The Luger action is intended to be a balanced system and will not operate correctly no matter what the mainspring strength if energy from the round is below the required level. Lugers are robust and IMO Prvi will not damage a mechanically sound Luger.

I can tell you from experience that some Lugers cannot be made to operate correctly with shorter/weaker ammo by weakening the mainspring. I once tried to make a Luger cycle with Fiocchi by weakening the mainspring; I finally got it to feed but the mainspring was then so weak it would not return the toggle to battery. With a stronger mainspring and Prvi it functioned perfectly.

I personally would not adjust a mainspring until I had tested a .30 Luger with both Fiocchi and Prvi. When I find I must adjust a mainspring, I start with one that is too strong and progressively weaken it by removing 1/2 coil, re-testing and so on until the spring will reliably operate the pistol with the selected ammo. Tedious process perhaps, but I find it satisfying to return a Luger to proper function.

[Ron Wood]

Cool trick with the dividers! I'm going to make one of those.