Round not consistently extracting

mestguy182 · 10-05-2018, 07:36 PM

Hi all,

I have a non matching #'s P08 that's having some issues. Initially the toggle wasn't moving forward all the way and the gun wouldn't go into battery. I ordered some springs from Wolff and replaced the main spring, ejector spring and firing pin spring. I went to the range, now it goes into battery every time. About halfway through that range trip I kept getting stove pipes, looked closer and realized my ejector broke. I ordered a new one and replaced it and went back to the range. Now everything is perfect... About 70% of the time. I keep getting jams, every time it happens the shell is still in the barrel. When I try to clear it I eject the magazine and function the toggle and the stuck round comes out no problem. The extractor looks ok to me and it works the majority of the time, any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

PS, also, the toggle is no longer locking open all the time, that's the first time I've had that issue, now sure if it's related.

4 Scale · 10-05-2018, 10:40 PM

What ammo are you using? Did you replace the extractor spring? A picture of the extractor tip might help as well.

On your toggle not locking back, you might try a different mag. Mec Gars are the recommended aftermarket brand. Sometimes on some pistols a stronger mag spring can improve hold open function; forum member GT has installed those for me in the past. That you replaced the mainspring and now it's not holding open may indicate the mainspring is a bit too strong, not uncommon if you are using 115gr. target ammo. IMO when replacing mainsprings or when the HO function is not always working, a tape test should be done (search the forums and you'll find how to do it).

DavidJayUden · 10-05-2018, 11:37 PM

I'd suspect 2 separate issues. Either the extractor is dirty, worn or broken , or the spring is weak, OR it doesn't like that brand of ammo.
One thing at a time.
dju

mestguy182 · 10-06-2018, 01:25 AM

Thank you for the replies. I'm using 115 GR Winchester White Box, 9mm. I did replace the extractor spring, I held on to the old one and may test putting it back in.

However, I found an issue I missed before, the ejector I changed out was not an original part and I noticed after my first post that the slide was feeling very notchy. It turns out that the ejector was too tall and was rubbing up against the frame. I filed the ejector down and now the slide moves smoothly. Could this have caused my issue?

4 Scale · 10-06-2018, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mestguy182

Could this have caused my issue?

I have never dealt with this particular issue but from my understanding of Lugers I would say possibly. As David points out, it is important to fix and then test one element at a time.

DonVoigt · 10-07-2018, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mestguy182

Thank you for the replies. I'm using 115 GR Winchester White Box, 9mm. I did replace the extractor spring, I held on to the old one and may test putting it back in.

However, I found an issue I missed before, the ejector I changed out was not an original part and I noticed after my first post that the slide was feeling very notchy. It turns out that the ejector was too tall and was rubbing up against the frame. I filed the ejector down and now the slide moves smoothly. Could this have caused my issue?

For sure.

You are sometimes mixing up extractor and ejector, and it gets confusing; I'm assuming you mean extractor.
The ejector is the long spring in the side of the receiver extension, and does not have a "spring" it is its own spring.

rhuff · 10-07-2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

For sure.

You are sometimes mixing up extractor and ejector, and it gets confusing; I'm assuming you mean extractor.

I wondered if it was only me that was getting confused about this thread's terminology(It is getting much easier these days to confuse me).

kurusu · 10-07-2018, 06:03 PM

OK. Let's get this thing done.

Extractor. A numbered part uses a spring for tension.

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Ejector. Not numbered, it is a spring in itself.

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This started wrong when the OP wrote he replaced the "ejector" spring. That thing doesn't exist. So I assume he meant "extractor" spring.

Later he wrote the ejector broke. And here I believe he really meant it. Ejectors break quite often.

ithacaartist · 10-06-2018, 01:47 AM

Justin, since you didn't mention hinky extraction as an issue to begin with, I'd put the original extractor spring back into it. I'm sure you cleaned out its well and gave it a drop of oil when changing before...

I recall a thread here not to long ago discussing an ejector that was misbehaving, and IIRC, the final solution was to dress the front edge of the ejector's tab. Apparently, if the edge is angled back when the action is rearmost, the edge will hit the shell on the lower right instead of the bottom the rim. Straight up ejection is unimpeded, as designed. Ejection angled off to the left side, not so much. In the case of that other gun, I think it was denting cases. But I'd say that any situation that misdirects or impedes the ejecting shell's travel can also mess up ejection.

Since the ejector is a replacement, it's worth a look.

mestguy182 · 10-08-2018, 01:17 AM

I apologize for the lack of clarity. Kurusu is correct, I did mean I replaced the ejector (photo #2).

The ejector is what I had to file down so it no longer contacted the frame. Just to be extra confusing I mentioned it the original post that I replaced the ejector spring, I should have said EXTRACTOR spring there because I also replaced the extractor spring in addition to the ejector.

Thanks again for the help. I think I'll try shooting again now that the ejector isn't dragging on the frame. I'll also bring the original extractor spring to the range and change it out if the issue still persists.

If nothing else I'll have fun with the carbine stock I 3D printed.

4 Scale · 10-08-2018, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mestguy182

If nothing else I'll have fun with the carbine stock I 3D printed.

I was once warned that placing a stock on a 4" barrel military Luger was illegal as they were not issued in that configuration. I don't know if that is true or not but suggest check the law first.

mestguy182 · 10-10-2018, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

I was once warned that placing a stock on a 4" barrel military Luger was illegal as they were not issued in that configuration. I don't know if that is true or not but suggest check the law first.

So I've researched this a little after your post and it appears that you're correct, which is really a bummer. In order to be legal it has to be a Luger that would have come with a stock (artillery, navy) and even then, the stock has to be an original or reproduction identical to the original.

I was going to post the files to 3D print one on Thingyverse and make a post here, but I guess I won't anymore!

mestguy182 · 10-08-2018, 02:59 PM

So, just got back from the range and all is not well. The gun performed much worse this time than last time. To start with, as mentioned above, all that changed since my last trip was the ejector was filed down so that it didn't drag against the frame. My very first shot the spent case failed to extract out of the barrel, so I stripped the gun and replaced the Wolff extractor spring with the one that came with the gun, on inspection their heights were identical but the original spring has a noticeably larger diameter.

This trip I couldn't get more than one round to extract correctly, meaning sometimes I could fire 2 consecutive rounds with out issue but no more and most of the time it failed to extract after only one round. Still every time I cycled the toggle by hand the spent case extracted successfully, sort of at a loss about what to try next. Both the bore and extractor look ok to me but I'll try to get some pictures.

DonVoigt · 10-08-2018, 03:05 PM

Sounds like you may have a dirty, scared, or scored chamber, or the headspace is too short allowing the mouth of the case to stick.

Try cleaning the chamber with a wire brush, and inspect for condition.

The ejector has nothing to do with your extraction problem as you describe it.

mestguy182 · 10-08-2018, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Sounds like you may have a dirty, scared, or scored chamber, or the headspace is too short allowing the mouth of the case to stick.

Try cleaning the chamber with a wire brush, and inspect for condition.

The ejector has nothing to do with your extraction problem as you describe it.

Thanks for the info. Even though when I cycle the toggle by hand the spent case comes right out, it could still indicate an issue with the chamber?

DonVoigt · 10-08-2018, 04:52 PM

Yes,
when fired the case expands slightly.
You can also look at a fired case for signs of scoring, marks, or bulging that could make extraction more difficult.

Extraction by hand occurs much more slowly than when firing.

I'd bet though, that your problem is with the hook of the extractor, or some junk/gunk keeping it from coming down fully.

It could even be the extractor notch i the barrel is not cut correctly and interfering.

Pictures of the breech, and the extractor from the side and bottom would help.

kurusu · 10-08-2018, 05:24 PM

Lugers like to be clean, and oiled.

Also, the original springs (talking mostly main spring here), unless they were tampered with in the past, they are generally the best option. They seem to last forever. Count the coils. If it's a WWI Luger it should have 19 coils, 21 if it's a 1936 to 1942 Mauser. I'm not familiar with Simsons or Krieghoffs (too rich for me

) so I won't address them. And since I have no Erfurts, I won't say anything about them either.

For .30 Luger, I only have one. 1909 Portuguese Army contract. It has 14 coils. And it works great*.

* I have never fired Fiocchi on it. Maybe the problem has already been addressed by Fiocchi, I don't know. But there was at least a batch that had the shoulder in the wrong place and they gave headspace problems. In a Luger an excess of headspace can lead to a broken breechblock(at the rear end), and that can ruin a fellow's day. Seen it happen, and more than once

. Rule of thumb fire five rounds. If you have any pierced primers, don't use that batch in a Luger anymore.

PS. What ammo are you using?

mestguy182 · 10-08-2018, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

Lugers like to be clean, and oiled.

Also, the original springs (talking mostly main spring here), unless they were tampered with in the past, they are generally the best option. They seem to last forever. Count the coils. If it's a WWI Luger it should have 19 coils, 21 if it's a 1936 to 1942 Mauser. I'm not familiar with Simsons or Krieghoffs (too rich for me

) so I won't address them. And since I have no Erfurts, I won't say anything about them either.

For .30 Luger, I only have one. 1909 Portuguese Army contract. It has 14 coils. And it works great*.

* I have never fired Fiocchi on it. Maybe the problem has already been addressed by Fiocchi, I don't know. But there was at least a batch that had the shoulder in the wrong place and they gave headspace problems. In a Luger an excess of headspace can lead to a broken breechblock(at the rear end), and that can ruin a fellow's day. Seen it happen, and more than once

. Rule of thumb fire five rounds. If you have any pierced primers, don't use that batch in a Luger anymore.

PS. What ammo are you using?

Thanks for the info, my Luger is not matching numbers, the toggle is DWM, the slide is S/42, the only mark I see on the frame is what looks like a lower case "a" written in cursive. I'll count the coils and let you know. I've been shooting 115 grain Winchester White Box. I did thoroughly clean and oil the whole gun prior to this range trip.

mestguy182 · 10-09-2018, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Yes,
when fired the case expands slightly.
You can also look at a fired case for signs of scoring, marks, or bulging that could make extraction more difficult.

Extraction by hand occurs much more slowly than when firing.

I'd bet though, that your problem is with the hook of the extractor, or some junk/gunk keeping it from coming down fully.

It could even be the extractor notch i the barrel is not cut correctly and interfering.

Pictures of the breech, and the extractor from the side and bottom would help.

Couple of quick photos.

4 Scale · 10-08-2018, 09:24 PM

One test I would perform on this pistol if it were mine: I'd remove the extractor, and carefully place a round in the chamber and fire the pistol. I would then see how difficult it is to remove the spent case by hand. Probably would do it few times. I'd bring a dowel with me to the range in case I needed extra push to remove the case.

I'd also try both the extractor and ejector in a different pistol known to function well to verify they are operating correctly.

My experience is 75% of fixing Luger issues is to properly diagnose.

10-05-2018, 07:36 PM	#1
mestguy182 User Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Indialantic, FL Posts: 26 Thanks: 15 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Round not consistently extracting Hi all, I have a non matching #'s P08 that's having some issues. Initially the toggle wasn't moving forward all the way and the gun wouldn't go into battery. I ordered some springs from Wolff and replaced the main spring, ejector spring and firing pin spring. I went to the range, now it goes into battery every time. About halfway through that range trip I kept getting stove pipes, looked closer and realized my ejector broke. I ordered a new one and replaced it and went back to the range. Now everything is perfect... About 70% of the time. I keep getting jams, every time it happens the shell is still in the barrel. When I try to clear it I eject the magazine and function the toggle and the stuck round comes out no problem. The extractor looks ok to me and it works the majority of the time, any thoughts? Thanks in advance! PS, also, the toggle is no longer locking open all the time, that's the first time I've had that issue, now sure if it's related. Last edited by mestguy182; 10-05-2018 at 07:40 PM. Reason: Add a thought

10-07-2018, 06:03 PM	#8
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	OK. Let's get this thing done. Extractor. A numbered part uses a spring for tension. Ejector. Not numbered, it is a spring in itself. This started wrong when the OP wrote he replaced the "ejector" spring. That thing doesn't exist. So I assume he meant "extractor" spring. Later he wrote the ejector broke. And here I believe he really meant it. Ejectors break quite often. Last edited by kurusu; 10-07-2018 at 07:32 PM.

10-06-2018, 01:47 AM	#9
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Justin, since you didn't mention hinky extraction as an issue to begin with, I'd put the original extractor spring back into it. I'm sure you cleaned out its well and gave it a drop of oil when changing before... I recall a thread here not to long ago discussing an ejector that was misbehaving, and IIRC, the final solution was to dress the front edge of the ejector's tab. Apparently, if the edge is angled back when the action is rearmost, the edge will hit the shell on the lower right instead of the bottom the rim. Straight up ejection is unimpeded, as designed. Ejection angled off to the left side, not so much. In the case of that other gun, I think it was denting cases. But I'd say that any situation that misdirects or impedes the ejecting shell's travel can also mess up ejection. Since the ejector is a replacement, it's worth a look. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

10-08-2018, 03:05 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Sounds like you may have a dirty, scared, or scored chamber, or the headspace is too short allowing the mouth of the case to stick. Try cleaning the chamber with a wire brush, and inspect for condition. The ejector has nothing to do with your extraction problem as you describe it. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-08-2018, 04:52 PM	#16
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Yes, when fired the case expands slightly. You can also look at a fired case for signs of scoring, marks, or bulging that could make extraction more difficult. Extraction by hand occurs much more slowly than when firing. I'd bet though, that your problem is with the hook of the extractor, or some junk/gunk keeping it from coming down fully. It could even be the extractor notch i the barrel is not cut correctly and interfering. Pictures of the breech, and the extractor from the side and bottom would help. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

10-05-2018, 10:40 PM	#2
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	What ammo are you using? Did you replace the extractor spring? A picture of the extractor tip might help as well. On your toggle not locking back, you might try a different mag. Mec Gars are the recommended aftermarket brand. Sometimes on some pistols a stronger mag spring can improve hold open function; forum member GT has installed those for me in the past. That you replaced the mainspring and now it's not holding open may indicate the mainspring is a bit too strong, not uncommon if you are using 115gr. target ammo. IMO when replacing mainsprings or when the HO function is not always working, a tape test should be done (search the forums and you'll find how to do it).

10-05-2018, 11:37 PM	#3
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I'd suspect 2 separate issues. Either the extractor is dirty, worn or broken , or the spring is weak, OR it doesn't like that brand of ammo. One thing at a time. dju

10-06-2018, 01:25 AM	#4
mestguy182 User Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Indialantic, FL Posts: 26 Thanks: 15 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Thank you for the replies. I'm using 115 GR Winchester White Box, 9mm. I did replace the extractor spring, I held on to the old one and may test putting it back in. However, I found an issue I missed before, the ejector I changed out was not an original part and I noticed after my first post that the slide was feeling very notchy. It turns out that the ejector was too tall and was rubbing up against the frame. I filed the ejector down and now the slide moves smoothly. Could this have caused my issue?

10-08-2018, 01:17 AM	#10
mestguy182 User Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Indialantic, FL Posts: 26 Thanks: 15 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	I apologize for the lack of clarity. Kurusu is correct, I did mean I replaced the ejector (photo #2). The ejector is what I had to file down so it no longer contacted the frame. Just to be extra confusing I mentioned it the original post that I replaced the ejector spring, I should have said EXTRACTOR spring there because I also replaced the extractor spring in addition to the ejector. Thanks again for the help. I think I'll try shooting again now that the ejector isn't dragging on the frame. I'll also bring the original extractor spring to the range and change it out if the issue still persists. If nothing else I'll have fun with the carbine stock I 3D printed.

10-08-2018, 02:59 PM	#13
mestguy182 User Join Date: Sep 2018 Location: Indialantic, FL Posts: 26 Thanks: 15 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	So, just got back from the range and all is not well. The gun performed much worse this time than last time. To start with, as mentioned above, all that changed since my last trip was the ejector was filed down so that it didn't drag against the frame. My very first shot the spent case failed to extract out of the barrel, so I stripped the gun and replaced the Wolff extractor spring with the one that came with the gun, on inspection their heights were identical but the original spring has a noticeably larger diameter. This trip I couldn't get more than one round to extract correctly, meaning sometimes I could fire 2 consecutive rounds with out issue but no more and most of the time it failed to extract after only one round. Still every time I cycled the toggle by hand the spent case extracted successfully, sort of at a loss about what to try next. Both the bore and extractor look ok to me but I'll try to get some pictures.

10-08-2018, 05:24 PM	#17
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 930 Times in 509 Posts	Lugers like to be clean, and oiled. Also, the original springs (talking mostly main spring here), unless they were tampered with in the past, they are generally the best option. They seem to last forever. Count the coils. If it's a WWI Luger it should have 19 coils, 21 if it's a 1936 to 1942 Mauser. I'm not familiar with Simsons or Krieghoffs (too rich for me ) so I won't address them. And since I have no Erfurts, I won't say anything about them either. For .30 Luger, I only have one. 1909 Portuguese Army contract. It has 14 coils. And it works great. I have never fired Fiocchi on it. Maybe the problem has already been addressed by Fiocchi, I don't know. But there was at least a batch that had the shoulder in the wrong place and they gave headspace problems. In a Luger an excess of headspace can lead to a broken breechblock(at the rear end), and that can ruin a fellow's day. Seen it happen, and more than once. Rule of thumb fire five rounds. If you have any pierced primers, don't use that batch in a Luger anymore. PS. What ammo are you using?

10-08-2018, 09:24 PM	#20
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	One test I would perform on this pistol if it were mine: I'd remove the extractor, and carefully place a round in the chamber and fire the pistol. I would then see how difficult it is to remove the spent case by hand. Probably would do it few times. I'd bring a dowel with me to the range in case I needed extra push to remove the case. I'd also try both the extractor and ejector in a different pistol known to function well to verify they are operating correctly. My experience is 75% of fixing Luger issues is to properly diagnose.