New Luger. Can someone help tell me what I found?

Iannn · 12-25-2018, 06:27 PM

I just got this yesterday and was sent to this forum to help identify what I got. Anyone tell me more about this fine firearm?

HerrKaiser · 12-25-2018, 07:11 PM

First glance says it’s a DWM commercial Luger, looks like a pre-war one since the barrel appears to be 4 5/8” long. Would need more pictures, especially those of any/all proof marks and serial numbers. Which will be located on the trigger guard on the front of the frame, underneath the side plate and takedown lever, underside of the barrel, and on the toggle links for sure. They might also be on the toggle link pin in the rear, firing pin, and the inside of the grips among other places, but some examples are also left unmarked and this is considered normal. I am sure that one of the moderators will post a link to it, but all of us would recommend you read the FAQ document that can be found as one of the tabs of the home page to help answer questions. Several YouTube videos also show how to properly disassemble your Luger to check for proofs and serial numbers, but if you are uncomfortable do this yourself, take it to a gunsmith who does know how to do so without damaging it.

Side note, there doesn’t seem to be a pin that should go down through the left toggle knob and that looks like an empty hole, not sure I’ve seen that before and I don’t know what, if any, problems that may cause. Merry Christmas to you and congrats on your new acquisition.

Edward Tinker · 12-25-2018, 07:16 PM

I made it so you would get notified - welcome to the forum and Merry Christmas

It doesn't have any proof markings on the left or right, and a 1908 would be on the left

the 295 on the barrel is weird

Caliber? - it would be 7.65mm (30 luger) or 9mm luger - take a common pencil, a 30 luger will go down barrel tighter, while if 9mm it will just all up and down.
----
several notes
1. better to post pictures here than google
2. no other markings makes me think its been reblued a bit too hard

Ed

DavidJayUden · 12-25-2018, 08:20 PM

Missing the toggle pin.
Anyone else find the ring around the base of the barrel odd? Looks thick and almost looks like an add-on.

4 Scale · 12-25-2018, 08:41 PM

David that was my reaction as well, that the barrel was changed at some point. More photos are needed, not sure if I see a stock lug or not.

The missing pin is a concern, it serves as a stop to keep the toggle axel in place. The pistol should not be fired until the missing pin is investigated/replaced.

HerrKaiser · 12-25-2018, 09:23 PM

No stock lug, though I don’t know if the frame was made that way or if it was ground off.

Edward Tinker · 12-25-2018, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

No stock lug, though I don’t know if the frame was made that way or if it was ground off.

it would be the serial number that would 'help' - but without other signs of proof and acceptance it makes it very hard.

I would say 1920's to 1930

Iannn · 12-25-2018, 10:44 PM

Is the serial not 9987?

Edward Tinker · 12-25-2018, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iannn

Is the serial not 9987?

yes, I did not look at these pictures

It looks like with an 'r' suffix - that is likely a post war, almost 1930 date - if it was a WW1 that was rebuilt by either DWM or other company, then it could be lots of years.

HOWEVER - since it is missing the stock lug, then it CAN'T be a 1908 frame, as an r is too late, they were less than a 'c' suffix. So, take pictures of the back of the frame, near the bottom. And it probably was removed - but lets see 2-3 pictures, straight back, slightly under, ect.

HerrKaiser · 12-26-2018, 01:01 AM

So as it stands, a late alphabet commercial with a barrel replacement and likely reblued?

DonVoigt · 12-26-2018, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

So as it stands, a late alphabet commercial with a barrel replacement and likely reblued?

"and with the stock lug removed."

I think the suffix may be a "p", as the P and R are tough to distinguish- but either leads to the same conclusions- a 1920 alphabet commercial that has been "modified/re-worked/re-blued/re-barreled".

mrerick · 12-26-2018, 10:55 AM

Weren't there US dealers selling re-barreled Lugers of various lengths by catalog in the USA in this time frame?

DonVoigt · 12-26-2018, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Weren't there US dealers selling re-barreled Lugers of various lengths by catalog in the USA in this time frame?

Yes.
I see nothing about this particular luger to indicate when it was re-barreled- only that it was.

Kyrie · 12-27-2018, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Weren't there US dealers selling re-barreled Lugers of various lengths by catalog in the USA in this time frame?

Yes sir, that was so. Especially noted for long barreled (up to 24 inches) Lugers was PAC (Pacific Arms Company).

Iannn · 12-26-2018, 02:19 PM

Thanks guys!! I will try to take it down and get more pictures of the parts. But I was looking around and came by this when looking into why this gun might have had its barrel replaced. Any idea of this is true?

"1920 Commercial Lugers were mostly World War One 9mm Lugers, rebarreled to 7.65x21 so they could be resold under the Treaty of Versailles' harsh limits on German production of guns in military calibers."

Also does anyone know where I can purchase a toggle axel pin? And I am pretty sure its 7.65x21. I did the pencil test on the luger and a 9mm and the luger is for sure not a 9mm.

Edward Tinker · 12-26-2018, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iannn

Thanks guys!! I will try to take it down and get more pictures of the parts. But I was looking around and came by this when looking into why this gun might have had its barrel replaced. Any idea of this is true?

"1920 Commercial Lugers were mostly World War One 9mm Lugers, rebarreled to 7.65x21 so they could be resold under the Treaty of Versailles' harsh limits on German production of guns in military calibers."

Also does anyone know where I can purchase a toggle axel pin? And I am pretty sure its 7.65x21. I did the pencil test on the luger and a 9mm and the luger is for sure not a 9mm.

Take with a large GRAIN of salt the 'rebuild' - Treaty of Versailles' and WW1 guns all rebarreled / rebuilds comments you see on the web. They are all true and not true. It simply depends - lots of lugers were rebuilt and sold on the market. Also true that DWM got into trouble for making 9mm - so they made 7.65mm.

This website has an excellent FAQ that Marc Erikson improved upon greatly and keeps up, besides hundreds of 'stickies'. And the search.

You can get a rear toggle pin from Lugerdoc.

Edward Tinker · 12-26-2018, 02:36 PM

whoa - it might be missing the rear toggle retainer pin, but its NOT the rear toggle pin.

David was talking about this....

lugerholsterrepair · 12-26-2018, 03:33 PM

The pin Ed so eloquently "points" out is fairly easily made if you have any kind of old drill bits. It is a retainer pin that must fit fairly snugly but not "driven" in. Depends on your level of skill with gun smithing/mechanical aptitude..

DonVoigt · 12-26-2018, 04:04 PM

Jerry is The leather guy, but I disagree- the missing pin is indeed "driven" in- or else it will fallout- perhaps as the missing one did. But then one man's "snug" is another man's "driven" in.

It is,however, "removable" to allow removal of the larger axle pin.

I find a common #17 size wire nail or brad can be cut and the ends squared with a file to make this very short pin. If it is a little loose in fit, just tap it with a taper punch to upset it into the hole a little. The pin only extends about 1/16" over the flanged end of the larger pin, any longer and it will keep the toggle for closing.

Iannn · 12-26-2018, 04:16 PM

Well I am in luck. I am a metal worker and have a metal working shop in my garage. I bet I can get a pin made with your guys help. But I took more of the pictures people suggested I take to help finding out what this gun is.

12-25-2018, 07:11 PM	#2
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	First glance says it’s a DWM commercial Luger, looks like a pre-war one since the barrel appears to be 4 5/8” long. Would need more pictures, especially those of any/all proof marks and serial numbers. Which will be located on the trigger guard on the front of the frame, underneath the side plate and takedown lever, underside of the barrel, and on the toggle links for sure. They might also be on the toggle link pin in the rear, firing pin, and the inside of the grips among other places, but some examples are also left unmarked and this is considered normal. I am sure that one of the moderators will post a link to it, but all of us would recommend you read the FAQ document that can be found as one of the tabs of the home page to help answer questions. Several YouTube videos also show how to properly disassemble your Luger to check for proofs and serial numbers, but if you are uncomfortable do this yourself, take it to a gunsmith who does know how to do so without damaging it. Side note, there doesn’t seem to be a pin that should go down through the left toggle knob and that looks like an empty hole, not sure I’ve seen that before and I don’t know what, if any, problems that may cause. Merry Christmas to you and congrats on your new acquisition. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

12-25-2018, 07:16 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	I made it so you would get notified - welcome to the forum and Merry Christmas It doesn't have any proof markings on the left or right, and a 1908 would be on the left the 295 on the barrel is weird Caliber? - it would be 7.65mm (30 luger) or 9mm luger - take a common pencil, a 30 luger will go down barrel tighter, while if 9mm it will just all up and down. ---- several notes 1. better to post pictures here than google 2. no other markings makes me think its been reblued a bit too hard Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-25-2018, 09:23 PM	#6
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	No stock lug, though I don’t know if the frame was made that way or if it was ground off. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

12-26-2018, 01:01 AM	#10
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	So as it stands, a late alphabet commercial with a barrel replacement and likely reblued? __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

12-26-2018, 10:55 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Weren't there US dealers selling re-barreled Lugers of various lengths by catalog in the USA in this time frame? __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-25-2018, 06:27 PM	#1
Iannn User Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	New Luger. Can someone help tell me what I found? I just got this yesterday and was sent to this forum to help identify what I got. Anyone tell me more about this fine firearm? Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Iannn; 12-25-2018 at 07:59 PM.

12-25-2018, 08:20 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Missing the toggle pin. Anyone else find the ring around the base of the barrel odd? Looks thick and almost looks like an add-on.

12-25-2018, 08:41 PM	#5
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	David that was my reaction as well, that the barrel was changed at some point. More photos are needed, not sure if I see a stock lug or not. The missing pin is a concern, it serves as a stop to keep the toggle axel in place. The pistol should not be fired until the missing pin is investigated/replaced.

12-25-2018, 10:44 PM	#8
Iannn User Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Is the serial not 9987?

12-26-2018, 02:19 PM	#15
Iannn User Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks guys!! I will try to take it down and get more pictures of the parts. But I was looking around and came by this when looking into why this gun might have had its barrel replaced. Any idea of this is true? "1920 Commercial Lugers were mostly World War One 9mm Lugers, rebarreled to 7.65x21 so they could be resold under the Treaty of Versailles' harsh limits on German production of guns in military calibers." Also does anyone know where I can purchase a toggle axel pin? And I am pretty sure its 7.65x21. I did the pencil test on the luger and a 9mm and the luger is for sure not a 9mm.

12-26-2018, 02:36 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	whoa - it might be missing the rear toggle retainer pin, but its NOT the rear toggle pin. David was talking about this.... Attached Thumbnails

12-26-2018, 03:33 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	The pin Ed so eloquently "points" out is fairly easily made if you have any kind of old drill bits. It is a retainer pin that must fit fairly snugly but not "driven" in. Depends on your level of skill with gun smithing/mechanical aptitude.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

12-26-2018, 04:04 PM	#19
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Jerry is The leather guy, but I disagree- the missing pin is indeed "driven" in- or else it will fallout- perhaps as the missing one did. But then one man's "snug" is another man's "driven" in. It is,however, "removable" to allow removal of the larger axle pin. I find a common #17 size wire nail or brad can be cut and the ends squared with a file to make this very short pin. If it is a little loose in fit, just tap it with a taper punch to upset it into the hole a little. The pin only extends about 1/16" over the flanged end of the larger pin, any longer and it will keep the toggle for closing. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-26-2018, 04:16 PM	#20
Iannn User Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Well I am in luck. I am a metal worker and have a metal working shop in my garage. I bet I can get a pin made with your guys help. But I took more of the pictures people suggested I take to help finding out what this gun is.