Ballpark value on this Luger

Jasta2 · 03-17-2019, 08:12 PM

Looks commercial and matching. The Mauser stamp looks kind of weak, but I do not think it's been buffed. Think on biding on this one. Buy it now is $2,000. I doubt it will go that high, but it does have 6 bidders. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/804134876

DonVoigt · 03-17-2019, 08:19 PM

=/- $1000, but if it is "90%" the seller is blind, more like 10%- well maybe he meant 90% of the finish was gone.

I thought you wanted a 1900?

Edward Tinker · 03-17-2019, 08:32 PM

Its because its a Mauser Banner - I'd add $300-$400 to that (max) but harder to sell and if looking for a shooter, probably better bets out there, plus harder to sell later.

Ed

DonVoigt · 03-17-2019, 08:53 PM

Yes, it is a banner, but in that condition what difference does that make- it is a shooter. JMHO.

Jasta2 · 03-17-2019, 10:53 PM

Don, I'm still looking for a 1900, but I still just keep shopping around, never know what might turn up. But many thanks for all the inputs.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-17-2019, 11:23 PM

What is with the Lazy Crown U proof on the left side above the serial number?

Jasta2 · 03-18-2019, 12:18 AM

Commercial proof mark if I'm correct.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-18-2019, 12:27 AM

Yes, it's a commercial proof mark alright, from another previous era..certainly shouldn't be on a Nazi 1939 Mauser Banner. The CROWN went out with the Kaiser at the end of 1918, 20 years previously.

Kyrie · 03-18-2019, 06:05 AM

I'm smelling a post-war East German re-build. Size and placement of various serial numbers is consistent with DDR rework, as is the commercial proof. It looks to me to have been re-finished, made up from salvaged parts renumbered to match the frame/barrel extension, and then commercially proofed in the DDR.

DonVoigt · 03-18-2019, 09:01 AM

There is no evidence it is anything but a 1939 commercial Mauser.
Not a rework, note the clean inside- it is a rust blued commercial luger, not a hot dipped EG rework. Though you cannot see it in the auction pictures, it is likely a "v" suffix pistol.

The proof is indeed a Crown U, used by Mauser in Oberndorf for commercial production, up to the 1939 promulgation of new markings. This 1939 is probably one of the "last" to have it. The Eagle/N was first used in January 1940.

For more complete info see "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946" by Hallock & van de Kamp.

Kyrie · 03-18-2019, 10:18 AM

Don,

Could be a righteous Mauser made Luger for 1939 with no DDR connection.

OTOH, I see some things, which you do not, that do suggest a possible DDR connection.

Ultimately we're both just speculating based on our knowledge and predilection.

That said, I tend to agree this is a "shooter grade" Luger and that the Mauser banner on this pistol would not tempt me to pay more for it that any other cosmetically ugly shooter Luger. No doubt there are others who feel differently.

Jasta2 · 03-18-2019, 11:34 AM

Broke out my old copy, bought back in 1970, of "Lugers at Random". It list many Mauser commercials, and contract Lugers used this proof from 1930 t0 1942. Page 41, proof 42.

Kyrie · 03-18-2019, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jasta2

Broke out my old copy, bought back in 1970, of "Lugers at Random". It list many Mauser commercials, and contract Lugers used this proof from 1930 t0 1942. Page 41, proof 42.

Yes sir, quite true.

Additionally, the C/U proof mark came back into usage in East Germany (DDR). In brief the East Germans rolled back the 1939 (Third Reich) proof laws and reverted to the proof laws/marks used before those specified in the 1939 Proof Law.

The C/U proof found on any German firearm may be evidence of more than one provenance.

DonVoigt · 03-18-2019, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Yes sir, quite true.

Additionally, the C/U proof mark came back into usage in East Germany (DDR). In brief the East Germans rolled back the 1939 (Third Reich) proof laws and reverted to the proof laws/marks used before those specified in the 1939 Proof Law.

The C/U proof found on any German firearm may be evidence of more than one provenance.

True, but the EG C/u is a different size and style.

lugerholsterrepair · 03-18-2019, 11:50 AM

Broke out my old copy, bought back in 1970, of "Lugers at Random". It list many Mauser commercials, and contract Lugers used this proof from 1930 t0 1942. Page 41, proof 42.

Amazing! Learn something everyday. Thanks!

DonVoigt · 03-18-2019, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

Broke out my old copy, bought back in 1970, of "Lugers at Random". It list many Mauser commercials, and contract Lugers used this proof from 1930 t0 1942. Page 41, proof 42.

Amazing! Learn something everyday. Thanks!

It is even more convoluted than that, there is a larger C/U that was used by Mauser up to 1934; then this smaller C/u up through 1939.
And as Kyrie commented, yet another C/U -different still- but similar by EG post WWII.

Jasta2 · 03-18-2019, 12:17 PM

EVERY time I post a question on this forum I learn a lot. It's great to see forum members varying opinions on Luger details and be respectful of each others opinion.

Kyrie · 03-18-2019, 03:45 PM

Here is an example of the DDR usage of the C/U:

That's one of the commercial usages (Suhl proof house firing proof, C/U, often accompanied by C/S and C/W, usually but not always with an eagle).

Kyrie · 03-18-2019, 04:00 PM

Another indicator of a DDR rework is the size of the two digit serial number fragment of each small part. The Germans, prior to 1946, tended to stamp these numbers with dies that produced digits that were two millimeters in height. The DDR used dies that produced larger (four millimeters) digits.

I had to look a bit to find a photo that will (I hope) illustrate the difference. The picture just below is of a DDR reworked 1939/42 Luger that was sent to Yemen as Warsaw pact military aid (circa 1960).

This pistol has a replacement side plate with the 4mm digits common to DDR rework parts. The size difference to the number on the (original) locking block are fairly easy to see in this photo:

Giving credit where credit is due, I initially learned of the difference in font sizes from one of Dieter Marschall's works. I cannot remember which work and so cannot do a better citation.

Jasta2 · 03-18-2019, 05:44 PM

Looking over your photo, the side plate 2 digit number compared to the left side 4 digit s/n, the side plates number is defiantly larger, easy to spot. The Luger on GB I'm looking at, there seems to be little different size between the side plate number, and the 4 digit s/n. If you look at the close up photo of both sets near side by side, for what I measure from the photo, IMHO, they are of the same size. More so when you enlarge the photo.

Then again my eyes might need to be recalibrated !!

03-17-2019, 08:12 PM	#1
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Ballpark value on this Luger Looks commercial and matching. The Mauser stamp looks kind of weak, but I do not think it's been buffed. Think on biding on this one. Buy it now is $2,000. I doubt it will go that high, but it does have 6 bidders. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/804134876

03-17-2019, 08:19 PM	#2
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	=/- $1000, but if it is "90%" the seller is blind, more like 10%- well maybe he meant 90% of the finish was gone. I thought you wanted a 1900? __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-17-2019, 08:53 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Yes, it is a banner, but in that condition what difference does that make- it is a shooter. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-17-2019, 11:23 PM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	What is with the Lazy Crown U proof on the left side above the serial number? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-18-2019, 12:27 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Yes, it's a commercial proof mark alright, from another previous era..certainly shouldn't be on a Nazi 1939 Mauser Banner. The CROWN went out with the Kaiser at the end of 1918, 20 years previously. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-17-2019, 08:32 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Its because its a Mauser Banner - I'd add $300-$400 to that (max) but harder to sell and if looking for a shooter, probably better bets out there, plus harder to sell later. Ed

03-17-2019, 10:53 PM	#5
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Don, I'm still looking for a 1900, but I still just keep shopping around, never know what might turn up. But many thanks for all the inputs.

03-18-2019, 12:18 AM	#7
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Commercial proof mark if I'm correct.

03-18-2019, 06:05 AM	#9
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	I'm smelling a post-war East German re-build. Size and placement of various serial numbers is consistent with DDR rework, as is the commercial proof. It looks to me to have been re-finished, made up from salvaged parts renumbered to match the frame/barrel extension, and then commercially proofed in the DDR.

03-18-2019, 09:01 AM	#10
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	There is no evidence it is anything but a 1939 commercial Mauser. Not a rework, note the clean inside- it is a rust blued commercial luger, not a hot dipped EG rework. Though you cannot see it in the auction pictures, it is likely a "v" suffix pistol. The proof is indeed a Crown U, used by Mauser in Oberndorf for commercial production, up to the 1939 promulgation of new markings. This 1939 is probably one of the "last" to have it. The Eagle/N was first used in January 1940. For more complete info see "The Mauser Parabellum 1930-1946" by Hallock & van de Kamp. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-18-2019, 10:18 AM	#11
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Don, Could be a righteous Mauser made Luger for 1939 with no DDR connection. OTOH, I see some things, which you do not, that do suggest a possible DDR connection. Ultimately we're both just speculating based on our knowledge and predilection. That said, I tend to agree this is a "shooter grade" Luger and that the Mauser banner on this pistol would not tempt me to pay more for it that any other cosmetically ugly shooter Luger. No doubt there are others who feel differently.

03-18-2019, 11:34 AM	#12
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Broke out my old copy, bought back in 1970, of "Lugers at Random". It list many Mauser commercials, and contract Lugers used this proof from 1930 t0 1942. Page 41, proof 42.

03-18-2019, 11:50 AM	#15
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Broke out my old copy, bought back in 1970, of "Lugers at Random". It list many Mauser commercials, and contract Lugers used this proof from 1930 t0 1942. Page 41, proof 42. Amazing! Learn something everyday. Thanks! __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-18-2019, 12:17 PM	#17
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	EVERY time I post a question on this forum I learn a lot. It's great to see forum members varying opinions on Luger details and be respectful of each others opinion.

03-18-2019, 03:45 PM	#18
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Here is an example of the DDR usage of the C/U: That's one of the commercial usages (Suhl proof house firing proof, C/U, often accompanied by C/S and C/W, usually but not always with an eagle).

03-18-2019, 04:00 PM	#19
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Another indicator of a DDR rework is the size of the two digit serial number fragment of each small part. The Germans, prior to 1946, tended to stamp these numbers with dies that produced digits that were two millimeters in height. The DDR used dies that produced larger (four millimeters) digits. I had to look a bit to find a photo that will (I hope) illustrate the difference. The picture just below is of a DDR reworked 1939/42 Luger that was sent to Yemen as Warsaw pact military aid (circa 1960). This pistol has a replacement side plate with the 4mm digits common to DDR rework parts. The size difference to the number on the (original) locking block are fairly easy to see in this photo: Giving credit where credit is due, I initially learned of the difference in font sizes from one of Dieter Marschall's works. I cannot remember which work and so cannot do a better citation. Last edited by Kyrie; 03-18-2019 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Credit to Dieter Marschall

03-18-2019, 05:44 PM	#20
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Looking over your photo, the side plate 2 digit number compared to the left side 4 digit s/n, the side plates number is defiantly larger, easy to spot. The Luger on GB I'm looking at, there seems to be little different size between the side plate number, and the 4 digit s/n. If you look at the close up photo of both sets near side by side, for what I measure from the photo, IMHO, they are of the same size. More so when you enlarge the photo. Then again my eyes might need to be recalibrated !! Attached Thumbnails