Russian capture with Simson Toggle

[Alister]

Hello everyone! I finally got my first Luger and I've already got a few questions about it!

1. The side plate has been force matched to read 31 and the take down lever is hard to read (I'll just assume it's not matching). But every other I've looked at besides the grips match with the number 31. This a pretty low serial number so I was wondering if all the 31 stamps are a German font or a Russian font? It would seem odd that they would force match a 31 on the side plate if they've stamped 31 everywhere else and to match so many pieces us pretty rare for Russian captures.

2. The toggle is a Simson but is every other piece Mauser? I'm guessing so due to the 42 stamps and Eagle 63. The toggle number matches the frame though so I'm not sure how that worked.

Any help would be appreciated! I know Russian captures aren't that collectable and they did a lot of work on what they captured but I'm really curious to hear what you all think.

Thank you so much!

[Edward Tinker]

Most folks, myself included will see the 'x' and think of it as a 'russian capture' - some recent information seems to show that it is not always true. The force matching I associate more with an east german gun that was then used in service. Making sure the part worked then renumbering is how I beleive.

The toggle was likely blank or perhaps it happened to be a #31.

The frame appears to have the 'Mauser' hump or bump, which would show that it was a mauser to start with and then it was reused / rebuilt when needed.

The low serial number can just be a coincidence, as tens of thousands were made each year and they started over (2nd batch of 10,000 would have a suffix letter). Or perhaps the front of the frame and side were renumbered.

Ed

[HerrKaiser]

Not just that, this one is all kinds of mixmaster force matched. I am pretty sure the right side of the upper is an Erfurt stamp, corroborated by the 1918 chamber date and Artillery cut. There are all kinds of mixed stamps on the gun, even in the same parts (like the barrel). Not sure if that side plate renumbering was scratched with a sharp tool or electropenciled on there. I would agree that it is more of an East German rework than a Russian capture gun. Shoot the crap out of it and let us know how it functions! Congrats on picking up your first Luger (they get a little addictive).

[Doubs]

That is one of the more interesting mixmaster Lugers that I've ever seen. As stated, the receiver appears to be Erfurt while the frame is Mauser.

What's intriguing to me is that the barrel proof marks (E/N & E/J) and the two E/N stamps on the right side of the receiver and frame are IAW the 1939 proof laws indicating that it may have been pieced together during the war. The E/63 on the barrel also supports that idea.

The E/N & E/J proofs were only used - AFAIK - on commercial guns and were not military proofs. The E/J is for proof after repairs; in this case, likely the replacement barrel.

The extractor finish is rather crude and I think Simpson did repairs which MIGHT explain the toggle train.

Does the "X" indicate Russian capture? Who knows? If it was owned by a civilian, it may have been confiscated and put together with military guns. Unfortunately, there's no way on earth to know exactly how that mix of parts came together or when.

[DonVoigt]

I believe the e/n and e/j were also used in East Germany post war.

update- E/n and E/u; thanks Dwight, one should always check before remembering.

[Dwight Gruber]

The e/N and e/J are specifically 1939. East Germany (Suhl) used c/N and c/U for proof, the final proof eagles are different birds.

The latest information on the X is that it is an East German export mark.

--Dwight

[Vlim]

So why do so many East German Lugers don't have the X? And why do lugers found in Ukrainian storage, exported after the collapse of the Soviet Union also have the X?

I don't know who came up with that idea, but it is the least likely explanation I have heard up till now.

The simplest explanation is that, like the 1920 marking, it is a property mark that prevents civilians and soldiers for turning in (and getting paid) the same guns multiple times.

[Alister]

Thank you all so much for your input!!! I deeply appreciate this and I wish that mix masters were just as easy to decipher as an authentic all matching haha! I will definitely post an update on how it shoots. I've cleaned it all and it appears to look fine!

It's almost comical to me that this is an almost all matching gun but technically not actually "matching" since the pieces came from different manufacturers and time periods. If only each part could talk and tell us what exactly happened to this Luger!

[Kyrie]

Originally Posted by Alister

--- snip ---

It's almost comical to me that this is an almost all matching gun but technically not actually "matching" since the pieces came from different manufacturers and time periods. If only each part could talk and tell us what exactly happened to this Luger!

Brace yourself for an old fart, back-in-the-day, pseudo-rant.

<rant>

Back when I was a young Luger collector the term "matched" or "matching" was verbal shorthand for "all factory original". That meant no replaced part - the gun was just as it initially came from the factory. If it wasn't all original it was a shooter. Part swapping to create a Luger that had the appearance of being factory original was viewed as a fraudulent action, that created a fake Luger.

The rise in part swapping to create a Luger that appears to be all original is the major reason I gave up collecting Lugers (other than "shooter" Lugers).

That "all original" extended to markings. If a Luger was unit marked it wasn't factory original and was a shooter.

Things change.

Part swapping has become a common practice. People even advertise for specific parts with specific numbers. The market demand for Lugers is orders of magnitude above what it was circa 1960, as is our general standard of living. Small wonder people pay collector grade prices for what I still regard as shooter grade Lugers.

</rant>

To each his own...

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Kyrie

Brace yourself for an old fart, back-in-the-day, pseudo-rant.

<rant>

Back when I was a young Luger collector the term "matched" or "matching" was verbal shorthand for "all factory original". That meant no replaced part - the gun was just as it initially came from the factory. If it wasn't all original it was a shooter. Part swapping to create a Luger that had the appearance of being factory original was viewed as a fraudulent action, that created a fake Luger.

The rise in part swapping to create a Luger that appears to be all original is the major reason I gave up collecting Lugers (other than "shooter" Lugers).

That "all original" extended to markings. If a Luger was unit marked it wasn't factory original and was a shooter.

Things change.

Part swapping has become a common practice. People even advertise for specific parts with specific numbers. The market demand for Lugers is orders of magnitude above what it was circa 1960, as is our general standard of living. Small wonder people pay collector grade prices for what I still regard as shooter grade Lugers.

</rant>

To each his own...

This is all great information for a new Luger guy. Mine is a 1918 Erfurt (like parts of the OP's ) with a DWM civilian side-plate and an after-market magazine. I'm always trying to make things as original as possible, but reading what you had to say, I'm thinking that "as original as possible" is to leave it with the DWM side-plate and try to find a mag that's from a wwi-era Erfurt.

I did not realize that any mis-matched parts makes a Luger a "shooter". But I guess I'd rather have a mis-matched Luger that shoots than a collector version that doesn't.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by runscott

I did not realize that any mis-matched parts makes a Luger a "shooter". But I guess I'd rather have a mis-matched Luger that shoots than a collector version that doesn't.

To the "purist", a Luger must be as it left the factory with all original parts still on it to be a collectible. Replaced parts that are force matched or not original reduce the pistol to a "shooter". The one exception is the magazine as they don't often match the gun's serial number.

The subject Luger is a real "FrankenLuger" in that it has an Imperial receiver, WW2 era Mauser frame and numerous mixed parts.

Dwight is correct that the E/N and E/J are IAW the 1939 proof laws and the Luger went through a rework sometime in 1939 or later during the Nazi era. The E/N is a nitro proof and the E/J appears on guns that were repaired.

Below are images of a Nazi era commercial rework that I've owned for years. It is a long frame Navy pistol mated to an upper and re-barreled to .30 caliber. The work was done by "Franken und Lunenschloss" of Suhl. Note the same E/N and E/J proofs.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by Doubs

To the "purist", a Luger must be as it left the factory with all original parts still on it to be a collectible. Replaced parts that are force matched or not original reduce the pistol to a "shooter". The one exception is the magazine as they don't often match the gun's serial number.

I just gave mine its first thorough cleaning and found it also has a mis-matched firing pin. Other than that, the DWM side-plate and the after-market mag...it's original! The good news is that it does what it was built to do, and probably as good or better than most.

[Dwight Gruber]

Quite correct that I mis-remembered this discussion https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...ussian+capture .


--Dwight

[DonVoigt]

What Kyrie said, +1 !

And I'd add that a "restoration" no matter how good is right up there with "faking" - IF it is
not marked to show the pistol is refinished/restored. This especially applies to "re-engraved or restored" markings. JMHO.

[Alister]

Hey Kyrie you made some very valid points so I don't consider what you said a "rant" in fact that was something that was on my mind when looking at Lugers! If you go that far out of your way to make your luger matching, what if ends being not very shootable?

I'll admit it's tough not being able to say my specific Luger was issued to a WWI or WWII German soldier as is, but nonetheless it has history and I can shoot it without worrying about value too much. Plus, since these are no longer in production, it's still kinda rare in its own way right?

[mrerick]

These old threads do rise, like zombies, from the dead, don't they?

You'd probably benefit from a copy of our forum's FAQ document. Just follow the FAQ links at the top of every page. It's full of useful reference information.

To be clear, collectors most highly value a Luger that is as close as possible to the state it was in when it left the factory. It's all downhill from there. Occasional rare Lugers still retain collector interest after parts have been swapped or the gun is restored. A pristing Russian Capture as it left the rework arsenal may be of interest too. Once they have been dipped, and parts swapped they end up shooters if they function properly.

You Luger has parts from every era. Imperial (the receiver) Weimar (at least the toggle) and WW-II (the Mauser frame).

A word of caution. It has been renumbered, and the legal serial number on the frame has been changed. Ensure that you keep the transfer paperwork that proves you received it that way. The ATF doesn't like altered legal serial numbers.

[runscott]

Originally Posted by mrerick

These old threads do rise, like zombies, from the dead, don't they?
.........
A word of caution. It has been renumbered, and the legal serial number on the frame has been changed. Ensure that you keep the transfer paperwork that proves you received it that way. The ATF doesn't like altered legal serial numbers.

That's interesting. I have an FFL 03, so I file the details of everything, but I guess all of us should.

As far as zombie threads go, I've brought such 'necro threads' back from ten years so six months seems like nothing .

[Jasta2]

Shooter, well not to me. I bough a 1906 Navy from a well know collector here just before he passed away.. The 1906 Navy is completely matching except for the correct Navy toggle train, just a few numbers off. Maybe as a collectable, it would not be considered as such, and looked upon as a shooter. But this is one 1906 Navy I'll never shoot.. I had Don Voight build me a FrankenLuger 6" Navy with Navy sights. Looks great, shoots even better. I've always wondered if a older or desirable Luger that would if all matching would sell in the $5,000 range, were to have one mismatched part, say sideplate, were would that fall in the world of collectability? Would finding a correctly numbered sideplate bring to back to matching, even though the same number sideplate was not original to the Luger? Sitting here with a cup of tea catching up on the post.

[DonVoigt]

Jasta,
My 1914 DWM Artillery luger is matching except for the side plate, as far as I'm concerned, it is certainly collectible! A "matching example" sells for $6k to $10k, so this one must be worth a little more than a $1200 shooter artillery; I surely hope so! JMHO.

I have a one part mismatched 1906 Navy also, bought from a Navy guy here; it must be worth more than a shooter, but less than a "full match"- cause I paid somewhere in between for it!

A mismatched part does not "automatically" make a luger a shooter(unless you want it to),
again JMHO.

[runscott]

With any new area of collecting, I've found that I had to go through a learning period, which involved 'thinking' I had done enough research and knew what I was about to do, followed by getting a great deal on something that I later learn from the more experienced collectors that it wasn't actually quite what I thought it was.

The good thing is that the first one is always special, and if you keep it, the mistakes don't hurt all that much.

I went through the same exact thing with my first vintage S&W (1955 .357) and my first vintage Colt (1954 3-5-7).