Commerical 9mm

Jasta2 · 12-30-2019, 04:19 PM

Little info to post here, but this is what I know from a VERY fast look over it in poor light. I was leaving a fellows place when he brought out from what I could tell was a commercial in 9MM. Only looked at it for a min. ( not by choice) What I noticed, near mint finish, could see no apparent buffing. Owner said it was never refinished. Outside the finish, the chamber was blank, DWM scroll on link, nitro proof on receiver ( lightly struck ) matching 4 digit number on frame and barrel with the last 2 digits on the rear of the toggle. No other proofs marks noticed. Owner said it was matching. I'm not quite sure where other matching numbers would be stamped on a commercial. Where else should I check? Wish I had the time to inspect it more and have a camera. I take it must be from the postwar era, but not sure on that. Maybe from info I've posted you guys might narrow down the era. In any case, he is only asking $1,000. A shooter in that condition would be worth that much. Going to buy it Monday. Will post some pictures.

Jasta2 · 12-30-2019, 05:52 PM

Correction. Quite sure it was a 5 digit s/n and not 4.

ithacaartist · 12-30-2019, 08:34 PM

Better jump on that one, Bill!

Ron Wood · 12-30-2019, 10:46 PM

For $1000 you may have just kissed a frog that will turn into a princess.
Ron

Doubs · 12-31-2019, 03:12 AM

Be sure to check it over in better light. Commercials were up to 92000 when they began using four digits with a suffix letter in 1923. I believe they began with 2000 i at that point.

Look on the underside of the take down lever and side plate for the last two digits of the serial number. See picture below.

Check bore condition. If it's good then you will have made a great deal.

Jasta2 · 12-31-2019, 09:37 AM

I may be wrong, but I do not remember seeing a suffix with the 4/5 digit number. Did all commercials of that era come with a suffix ?

DonVoigt · 12-31-2019, 10:32 AM

5 digit commercials had no suffixes, the 4 digit "alphabet commercials" did have a suffix; just like the one shown- starting with "i" and running though "v"(DWM->Mauser).

Of course the earlier commercials had fewer than 5 digits, since they started with "1", so there are some 4 digit numbers without suffixes(also 1,2,3 digit numbers).

Jasta2 · 12-31-2019, 11:12 AM

Thanks Don, Long time since chatting with you. Wish I had more time with the Luger to look it over and take pictures. So if it has a 5 digit number with no suffix, is it still a 1923 commercial? I have 2 Luger books that show the different versions on Lugers with very basic s/n info. Now I can't wait until Monday to see it again and will buy it in any case. Your navy still shoots great. Let others put a few rounds through it at the range. Most had never fired a Luger, others had not idea what a Luger was. Afterward, quite a few inquired about buying one. After I explained the basic history and cost for a very nice shooter would be $1,000, most jaws dropped. They then started telling me all the firearms they could buy for $1,000. Happy New Year to you and the members of the Luger forum.

HerrKaiser · 12-31-2019, 11:48 AM

To answer your question about if your 5 digit s/n is a post war production, the answer depends on what its serial number is. 1-72000 were made before the war (I may be a thousand or 2 off there, but it was in the low 70,000's). After the war, they were still serialized with 5 digits until around 92000 at which point they numbered the commercial pistols in the "alphabet" style.

George Anderson · 12-31-2019, 11:54 AM

The easiest way to determine whether the pistol is pre WWI or post WWI is to look at the crown/N proof; if it's horizontal the pistol is pre war if it's vertical it's post war.

Jasta2 · 12-31-2019, 12:04 PM

As I recall it was vertical. So what would be the difference if it was 4 digit with no suffix and the crown was vertical?

HerrKaiser · 12-31-2019, 01:43 PM

Alphabet commercials seem to be nearly automatic shooter grade to collectors no matter their condition, and top end value for them from what I’ve seen is about $1500 if it’s absolutely mint condition. Just my observations from gun shows and for sale ads on the forums.

The 5 digit post-war commercials are slightly more collectible and valuable than alphabet commercials, but nowhere near their pre-war and wartime commercial 5 digit brethren. They top out around 1800 if in mint condition. Again, just my observations.

Jasta2 · 12-31-2019, 02:05 PM

Thank you for the information. Disregarding it's collector value. From what little I saw of it and it's condition, I think $1,000 is a good buy for it even if it's collectability ends up valued as a shooter.

Jasta2 · 12-31-2019, 02:41 PM

Looking at Simpsons commercial Luger listings, they seem to list all .30 cal. as 1920 models and all 9mm as 1908 models. What is that based on? Is the 1908 just referring to the original 1908 military style Luger.? Searching for 1923 commercials on Simpsons. they all look to be .30 cal. Boy, never researched info on Commercials. Lots to learn on them.

DonVoigt · 12-31-2019, 04:27 PM

The "commercial" designations are collector creations and confusing for sure.
More recent designations are below, simplified and not subscribed to by all, as one still sees
1920 and 1923 used.

None of these are strictly 7,65mm or 9mm as each caliber exists in each category:

-old model parabellum, the "1900" models with leaf spring, and long chamber
-new model parabellum, the "1906" models with coil spring, found with short chamber and a few
with long chamber, some of these may be former "1920 commercials"
Most of the two above would have been commercial pistols, but many were sold under contract
to foreign military entities
-P 04- the navy models-these are 9mm unless modified into "navy commercial"
-P 08 - commercial or military
-L P 08- the lange pistol or artillery model, originally 9mm; unless converted to "commercial
artillery"
-P 14 - a P 08 with grip safety
Alphabet commercial- a P 08 with 1-4 digit serial number with letter suffix

Confusing enough yet?

And I've the feeling I left one or two out, but someone will be along shortly to correct and/or dispute what I have written.

Dwight Gruber is working on a Commercial Luger book, he cannot finish it soon enough for me!

Jasta2 · 12-31-2019, 05:28 PM

Thanks Don, I seem to doubt anyone could ever name all the variations of Lugers ever built. commercial or military. etc. My old original copy of 'Lugers at Random', over 300 variations are listed with notes on variations of the variations and that was 1969 fifty years ago.

MFC · 12-31-2019, 11:51 PM

Just to clarify... Alphabet Commercials can have 1,2,3 or 4 digit serial numbers, with suffix.

DonVoigt · 01-01-2020, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFC

Just to clarify... Alphabet Commercials can have 1,2,3 or 4 digit serial numbers, with suffix.

Tru 'dat.

12-30-2019, 04:19 PM	#1
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Commerical 9mm Little info to post here, but this is what I know from a VERY fast look over it in poor light. I was leaving a fellows place when he brought out from what I could tell was a commercial in 9MM. Only looked at it for a min. ( not by choice) What I noticed, near mint finish, could see no apparent buffing. Owner said it was never refinished. Outside the finish, the chamber was blank, DWM scroll on link, nitro proof on receiver ( lightly struck ) matching 4 digit number on frame and barrel with the last 2 digits on the rear of the toggle. No other proofs marks noticed. Owner said it was matching. I'm not quite sure where other matching numbers would be stamped on a commercial. Where else should I check? Wish I had the time to inspect it more and have a camera. I take it must be from the postwar era, but not sure on that. Maybe from info I've posted you guys might narrow down the era. In any case, he is only asking $1,000. A shooter in that condition would be worth that much. Going to buy it Monday. Will post some pictures.

12-30-2019, 08:34 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,347 Thanks: 7,285 Thanked 2,579 Times in 1,366 Posts	Better jump on that one, Bill! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

12-30-2019, 10:46 PM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	For $1000 you may have just kissed a frog that will turn into a princess. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-31-2019, 10:32 AM	#7
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	5 digit commercials had no suffixes, the 4 digit "alphabet commercials" did have a suffix; just like the one shown- starting with "i" and running though "v"(DWM->Mauser). Of course the earlier commercials had fewer than 5 digits, since they started with "1", so there are some 4 digit numbers without suffixes(also 1,2,3 digit numbers). __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-31-2019, 11:48 AM	#9
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	To answer your question about if your 5 digit s/n is a post war production, the answer depends on what its serial number is. 1-72000 were made before the war (I may be a thousand or 2 off there, but it was in the low 70,000's). After the war, they were still serialized with 5 digits until around 92000 at which point they numbered the commercial pistols in the "alphabet" style. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

12-30-2019, 05:52 PM	#2
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Correction. Quite sure it was a 5 digit s/n and not 4.

12-31-2019, 03:12 AM	#5
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,698 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,687 Times in 554 Posts	Be sure to check it over in better light. Commercials were up to 92000 when they began using four digits with a suffix letter in 1923. I believe they began with 2000 i at that point. Look on the underside of the take down lever and side plate for the last two digits of the serial number. See picture below. Check bore condition. If it's good then you will have made a great deal.

12-31-2019, 09:37 AM	#6
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	I may be wrong, but I do not remember seeing a suffix with the 4/5 digit number. Did all commercials of that era come with a suffix ?

12-31-2019, 11:12 AM	#8
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Thanks Don, Long time since chatting with you. Wish I had more time with the Luger to look it over and take pictures. So if it has a 5 digit number with no suffix, is it still a 1923 commercial? I have 2 Luger books that show the different versions on Lugers with very basic s/n info. Now I can't wait until Monday to see it again and will buy it in any case. Your navy still shoots great. Let others put a few rounds through it at the range. Most had never fired a Luger, others had not idea what a Luger was. Afterward, quite a few inquired about buying one. After I explained the basic history and cost for a very nice shooter would be $1,000, most jaws dropped. They then started telling me all the firearms they could buy for $1,000. Happy New Year to you and the members of the Luger forum.

12-31-2019, 11:54 AM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	The easiest way to determine whether the pistol is pre WWI or post WWI is to look at the crown/N proof; if it's horizontal the pistol is pre war if it's vertical it's post war.

12-31-2019, 12:04 PM	#11
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	As I recall it was vertical. So what would be the difference if it was 4 digit with no suffix and the crown was vertical?

12-31-2019, 01:43 PM	#12
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 848 Thanks: 784 Thanked 861 Times in 411 Posts	Alphabet commercials seem to be nearly automatic shooter grade to collectors no matter their condition, and top end value for them from what I’ve seen is about $1500 if it’s absolutely mint condition. Just my observations from gun shows and for sale ads on the forums. The 5 digit post-war commercials are slightly more collectible and valuable than alphabet commercials, but nowhere near their pre-war and wartime commercial 5 digit brethren. They top out around 1800 if in mint condition. Again, just my observations. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

12-31-2019, 02:05 PM	#13
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Thank you for the information. Disregarding it's collector value. From what little I saw of it and it's condition, I think $1,000 is a good buy for it even if it's collectability ends up valued as a shooter.

12-31-2019, 02:41 PM	#14
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Looking at Simpsons commercial Luger listings, they seem to list all .30 cal. as 1920 models and all 9mm as 1908 models. What is that based on? Is the 1908 just referring to the original 1908 military style Luger.? Searching for 1923 commercials on Simpsons. they all look to be .30 cal. Boy, never researched info on Commercials. Lots to learn on them.

12-31-2019, 04:27 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	The "commercial" designations are collector creations and confusing for sure. More recent designations are below, simplified and not subscribed to by all, as one still sees 1920 and 1923 used. None of these are strictly 7,65mm or 9mm as each caliber exists in each category: -old model parabellum, the "1900" models with leaf spring, and long chamber -new model parabellum, the "1906" models with coil spring, found with short chamber and a few with long chamber, some of these may be former "1920 commercials" Most of the two above would have been commercial pistols, but many were sold under contract to foreign military entities -P 04- the navy models-these are 9mm unless modified into "navy commercial" -P 08 - commercial or military -L P 08- the lange pistol or artillery model, originally 9mm; unless converted to "commercial artillery" -P 14 - a P 08 with grip safety Alphabet commercial- a P 08 with 1-4 digit serial number with letter suffix Confusing enough yet? And I've the feeling I left one or two out, but someone will be along shortly to correct and/or dispute what I have written. Dwight Gruber is working on a Commercial Luger book, he cannot finish it soon enough for me! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-31-2019, 05:28 PM	#16
Jasta2 User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 514 Thanks: 349 Thanked 101 Times in 52 Posts	Thanks Don, I seem to doubt anyone could ever name all the variations of Lugers ever built. commercial or military. etc. My old original copy of 'Lugers at Random', over 300 variations are listed with notes on variations of the variations and that was 1969 fifty years ago.

12-31-2019, 11:51 PM	#17
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Just to clarify... Alphabet Commercials can have 1,2,3 or 4 digit serial numbers, with suffix. __________________ Mike C.