Fake 1916 Navy on Gunbroker!

Norme · 05-30-2020, 08:47 PM

For beginners only, what's wrong with this gun?
Norm
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867198655

gunbugs · 05-30-2020, 11:00 PM

I always feel like a beginner here, so I'll take a stab. Crown M proofs are spaced too far apart and also, the crown N seems strange. Although, the crowns aren't "floating" over the "M". Plus, it appears the link retaining pin is blued over, instead of in the white.

gunnertwo · 05-31-2020, 03:53 AM

A 1916 with no chamber date? Backwards C / N ?

G2

Kiwi · 05-31-2020, 10:16 AM

I do not see the rear sight adjustable for range

Proofed · 05-31-2020, 10:38 AM

front sight blade is ridged all the way to the top

Mac Cat · 05-31-2020, 10:52 AM

The "N" is backwards

Norme · 05-31-2020, 11:05 AM

Come on guys, this gun has more red flags than a Moscow May Day parade!
Norm

gunnertwo · 05-31-2020, 05:12 PM

Obi-Wan Kenobi,

Please school these many Padawns.

G2

Norme · 05-31-2020, 06:55 PM

O.K. guys, you did pretty good, not great, but pretty good:

gunbugs, you get a point for the blued toggle retaining pin.

gunnertwo, you get a point for noticing the missing chamber date, but you lose a point for not noticing that the date is missing from the front sight base as well!

Proofed, you get 3 points for noticing that the front sight is serrated all the way to the top not 2/3 of the way up as it should be (see photos). However, I have to deduct a point for not noticing that the base is undated.

How come nobody noticed the commercial C/N proofs? Don't you know that the German for Navy is Marine? Your lucky I'm in a good mood or you chaps would be in negative territory! There is one other red flag but I really didn't expect anyone to get it as it's not in the books yet. The relieved sear bar was introduced in late 1916 and the first 1200 aprox 1916 Navies came without this feature.
Norm

Proofed · 06-01-2020, 11:09 PM

Ther is a date on the front sight base left side. hard to see but there.
And to think i was ready to severely reprimand myself and go to bed with no hot toddy

Norme · 06-02-2020, 09:12 AM

I believe you are correct, if one stares hard enough at Photo #3 one can just make out the last two digits of 1916, so you and gunner two get your points reinstated. I may be tough, but I'm fair.
Norm

Proofed · 06-03-2020, 05:52 AM

Norm
For as much help as you have given the users of this forum, you can be any way you like.
Thank You

CptCurl · 08-20-2020, 01:28 PM

Ok, I know nothing about these, and little about anything.

I looked at that Luger before reading this thread. My impression was that it might be a 1920 Commercial Navy, perhaps tarted up to appear to be a military 1914 model.

The one thing that screamed at me was the "Germany" stamp on front of the frame along with the Crown over N commercial proof on the receiver. I've not seen a military Luger with these marks.

I'm all into points and gold stars. Do I get any?

Curl

CptCurl · 08-20-2020, 01:29 PM

By the way, the gun was re-listed. Here's the new URL: https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/875487639

Curl

CptCurl · 08-20-2020, 01:38 PM

As a followup, I just looked at Kenyon. I know he is considered outdated, but there's a lot of information there.

For the 1920 Navy Commercial, as to proofing, he states: "Nitro proof. Some have military proof, or military AND nitro proof, or NONE."

Of course, he notes it will be stamped "Germany" on the front of the frame, or "Made in Germany."

The photo in my edition is grainy, but it looks to me like the example he features in the book has its front sight serrated all the way to the top. It certainly doesn't have a date stamp on the top of the receiver. Also, his example appears to be without proofs. His does have a relieved sear bar.

So my vote is that the GunBroker gun is really a 1920 Navy Commercial.

JMHO, YMMV

Curl

P.S. Kenyon says the 1920 Navy Commercial is scarce.

Norme · 08-20-2020, 01:57 PM

Hi Curl,
The "GERMANY" stamp was applied after the war when a lot of military equipment was exported to the US to raise cash. You do get a point for noticing the C/N commercial proof on the receiver but I regret that you forfeit it because you failed to notice the C/N proof on the barrel in the photo you posted.
Norm

CptCurl · 08-20-2020, 02:53 PM

Oh well, points are easy come, easy go. But I did see the C/N proof on the barrel. Just didn't mention it. I also saw the military proof stamp on the left side of the barrel.

I still think this gun is a 1920 Navy Commercial.

I'll be the first to say that when the British de-commissioned their military handguns they sent them to the civilian proof house for commercial proof. I haven't seen that practice on de-commissioned German pistols. There are millions of German military Lugers here in the U.S., and I don't recall seeing one with civilian proofs and "Germany" stamped on the frame.

But again, I don't claim any expertise on these. I know just enough to get myself in trouble.

Curl

Ron Wood · 08-20-2020, 02:56 PM

I think Curl should get at least a half point back since the GERMANY stamp accounts for the C/N on both the receiver and barrel. His observation was mostly to point out the commercial export aspect and not a detailed observation beyond that.
Ron

Dwight Gruber · 08-20-2020, 04:59 PM

Being late to the game, I will only point out that the c/Ns are fake.

--Dwight

Yakman · 08-20-2020, 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=Dwight Gruber;332991]Being late to the game, I will only point out that the c/Ns are fake.

Dwight, your assertion doesn't mean much without an elaboration. Would you provide more detail please?

Jack

05-30-2020, 08:47 PM	#1
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Fake 1916 Navy on Gunbroker! For beginners only, what's wrong with this gun? Norm https://www.gunbroker.com/item/867198655

05-31-2020, 06:55 PM	#9
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	O.K. guys, you did pretty good, not great, but pretty good: gunbugs, you get a point for the blued toggle retaining pin. gunnertwo, you get a point for noticing the missing chamber date, but you lose a point for not noticing that the date is missing from the front sight base as well! Proofed, you get 3 points for noticing that the front sight is serrated all the way to the top not 2/3 of the way up as it should be (see photos). However, I have to deduct a point for not noticing that the base is undated. How come nobody noticed the commercial C/N proofs? Don't you know that the German for Navy is Marine? Your lucky I'm in a good mood or you chaps would be in negative territory! There is one other red flag but I really didn't expect anyone to get it as it's not in the books yet. The relieved sear bar was introduced in late 1916 and the first 1200 aprox 1916 Navies came without this feature. Norm Attached Thumbnails

06-01-2020, 11:09 PM	#10
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	front sight Ther is a date on the front sight base left side. hard to see but there. And to think i was ready to severely reprimand myself and go to bed with no hot toddy

06-03-2020, 05:52 AM	#12
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	Helping Norm For as much help as you have given the users of this forum, you can be any way you like. Thank You

08-20-2020, 01:28 PM	#13
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	Ok, I know nothing about these, and little about anything. I looked at that Luger before reading this thread. My impression was that it might be a 1920 Commercial Navy, perhaps tarted up to appear to be a military 1914 model. The one thing that screamed at me was the "Germany" stamp on front of the frame along with the Crown over N commercial proof on the receiver. I've not seen a military Luger with these marks. I'm all into points and gold stars. Do I get any? Curl Attached Thumbnails

05-30-2020, 11:00 PM	#2
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 659 Thanks: 365 Thanked 1,178 Times in 394 Posts	I always feel like a beginner here, so I'll take a stab. Crown M proofs are spaced too far apart and also, the crown N seems strange. Although, the crowns aren't "floating" over the "M". Plus, it appears the link retaining pin is blued over, instead of in the white.

05-31-2020, 03:53 AM	#3
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 623 Thanks: 826 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	A 1916 with no chamber date? Backwards C / N ? G2

05-31-2020, 10:16 AM	#4
Kiwi User Join Date: Mar 2019 Location: Wrong side of the Delaware river Posts: 307 Thanks: 215 Thanked 435 Times in 172 Posts	I do not see the rear sight adjustable for range

05-31-2020, 10:38 AM	#5
Proofed User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Pa. Posts: 157 Thanks: 535 Thanked 338 Times in 90 Posts	front sight blade is ridged all the way to the top

05-31-2020, 10:52 AM	#6
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 731 Thanks: 2,095 Thanked 610 Times in 329 Posts	The "N" is backwards

05-31-2020, 11:05 AM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Come on guys, this gun has more red flags than a Moscow May Day parade! Norm

05-31-2020, 05:12 PM	#8
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 623 Thanks: 826 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	Obi-Wan Kenobi, Please school these many Padawns. G2

06-02-2020, 09:12 AM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	I believe you are correct, if one stares hard enough at Photo #3 one can just make out the last two digits of 1916, so you and gunner two get your points reinstated. I may be tough, but I'm fair. Norm

08-20-2020, 01:29 PM	#14
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	By the way, the gun was re-listed. Here's the new URL: https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/875487639 Curl

08-20-2020, 01:38 PM	#15
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	As a followup, I just looked at Kenyon. I know he is considered outdated, but there's a lot of information there. For the 1920 Navy Commercial, as to proofing, he states: "Nitro proof. Some have military proof, or military AND nitro proof, or NONE." Of course, he notes it will be stamped "Germany" on the front of the frame, or "Made in Germany." The photo in my edition is grainy, but it looks to me like the example he features in the book has its front sight serrated all the way to the top. It certainly doesn't have a date stamp on the top of the receiver. Also, his example appears to be without proofs. His does have a relieved sear bar. So my vote is that the GunBroker gun is really a 1920 Navy Commercial. JMHO, YMMV Curl P.S. Kenyon says the 1920 Navy Commercial is scarce.

08-20-2020, 01:57 PM	#16
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Curl, The "GERMANY" stamp was applied after the war when a lot of military equipment was exported to the US to raise cash. You do get a point for noticing the C/N commercial proof on the receiver but I regret that you forfeit it because you failed to notice the C/N proof on the barrel in the photo you posted. Norm

08-20-2020, 02:53 PM	#17
CptCurl User Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Botetourt County, Virginia Posts: 120 Thanks: 93 Thanked 140 Times in 46 Posts	Oh well, points are easy come, easy go. But I did see the C/N proof on the barrel. Just didn't mention it. I also saw the military proof stamp on the left side of the barrel. I still think this gun is a 1920 Navy Commercial. I'll be the first to say that when the British de-commissioned their military handguns they sent them to the civilian proof house for commercial proof. I haven't seen that practice on de-commissioned German pistols. There are millions of German military Lugers here in the U.S., and I don't recall seeing one with civilian proofs and "Germany" stamped on the frame. But again, I don't claim any expertise on these. I know just enough to get myself in trouble. Curl

08-20-2020, 02:56 PM	#18
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I think Curl should get at least a half point back since the GERMANY stamp accounts for the C/N on both the receiver and barrel. His observation was mostly to point out the commercial export aspect and not a detailed observation beyond that. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-20-2020, 04:59 PM	#19
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Being late to the game, I will only point out that the c/Ns are fake. --Dwight

08-20-2020, 09:11 PM	#20
Yakman User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 119 Thanks: 881 Thanked 81 Times in 40 Posts	Fake 1916 Navy [QUOTE=Dwight Gruber;332991]Being late to the game, I will only point out that the c/Ns are fake. Dwight, your assertion doesn't mean much without an elaboration. Would you provide more detail please? Jack