Deaths Head Rework

[sharpsman2002]

I'm a daily lurker on this discussion forum, and find it very informative.

Tomorrow, I have an opportunity to purchase a Deaths Head Rework (1918 date). All serial numbers match excluding the magazine. Condition is yet to be seen, but the price, so far, is set at $1,400.

Does anyone have any input regarding these guns, and do you have any recommendations as to what I should look for when reviewing the pistol?

Much appreciated.

[Edward Tinker]

The price is very fair for a "real" Deathshead, but from what I understand, the vast majority of them are fakes.

Lots of discussion on this issue on this forum and others. Do a search on Death Head and see what comes up.

my 2 cents,

Ed

[Dwight Gruber]

Also search on totenkopf.

--Dwight

[John Sabato]

I concur with Ed and Dwight. Do your homework before you plunk down $1400... The "Waffenfabrik USA" will fraudulently stamp anything on any gun they think they boost the selling price on...

Death's Head guns are very controversial because there really is no documented evidence of the purpose of the stamp. Just a lot of rumor and supposition...

Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware) especially if the seller has some tall tale about the gun's origin without any kind of proof other than what he was "told" when he bought it.

[sharpsman2002]

Thanks for the input guys. Just wanted to let you know that I took a look at the gun today. Very deep pitting throughout. Someone definitely cleaned the gun with a wire brush--almost a silver appearance with 10% blue.

YUCK!!!

[Ron Wood]

That description almost exactly matches the condition of my Deaths Head Luger (except the pitting on my gun is very shallow) that I have owned for over 30 years. It will never win any beauty prizes, but when I bought it, not from a dealer or big time collector, but from a plumber in New Jersey, it was "just a Luger" and cheap. I consider it more authentic than many of the relatively pristine examples that I have seen for sale over the years.

[Leon DeSpain]

Hi Ron,

My example also has pitting, a lot of blue wear and mismatched parts. The receiver was scrubbed and has a "lazy s" DH stamped on it. I have the same stamp on my reworked GEW98 DH example although the GEW stamp is much smaller, of course.

My understanding is that when the SS was given responsibility for guarding the death camps they needed military level weapons for the first time. They, being a political organization, couldn't acquire new P.08s so they got access to P.08s that had been basically scrapped by the Heer and mixed and matched parts until they had a functioning firearm. They were not concerned about finishes, only one that worked.

I would be extremely sceptical of a DH marked example that is all matching and has a high percentage of blue.

What is your take on the DH Lugers?

Regards, Leon

[Ron Wood]

Leon,
The use of the DH on early Lugers is an enigma and has been variously attributed to The First and Second Leib Garde Hussars, the 17th Brunswick Hussars, the Brunswick 3rd Battalion 92nd Infantry Regiment, "Freikorps" units during the late Weimar era, flamethrower or "Flammenwerfer" units, tank units, sturmbattalions and a few others. For many years I favored the notion that these Lugers might have been utilized by the Leib Garde Hussars since the DH emblem has the bones crossing behind the skull, which is the style of the LG Hussars, and not the Brunswick units that have emblems with the bones crossing below the skull. Also, I felt that he â??lazy Sâ?� above the DH might be a stylized representation of the bandeau above the DH on the LG Hussar busby. However, it is the flamethrower connection that is currently considered the most favorable theory (see Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" and "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" volumes) The lazy S surmounting the skull is thought to be a stylized representation of a flamethrower pattern. I have not seen any photos or illustrations of flamethrower units with such an insignia, so I guess the romantic in me would like to accept the Leib Garde Hussar attribution. But I bow to the opinions of those more learned than myself.

I do not believe that the DH Lugers have any association with the SS or death camp guards.

[Leon DeSpain]

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the reply.

Please click on the link below to see pictures of both the lazy "S" stamp that is on my GEW98 DH rework and the same stamp on my DWM DH rework.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page54.html

My question is: If the lazy "S" stamp is attributed to flamethrower units or the Weimar period what is it doing on a rifle that is documented as having been reworked for the SS during the Third Reich period?

I am not being argumentative here but I have heard of the flamethrower theory before and, with the 2 examples I have, I really don't understand it.

Do you have a possible explanation?

Regards, Leon

[Ron Wood]

I wish I had an explanation, but as I said, the DH is an enigma. Your photos illustrate four distinct styles of DH stamps, and the lazy S DH stamp on the GEW98 differs from the one on the DWM. My example is yet another variation.

Darned if I know who put them there or when. Except for yours, all the DH Lugers I have seen have been dated from 1913 to 1918. If I were to venture a WAG, I might suppose that your GEW98 saw service with a Weimar era unit and was later employed by the SS. Quite a coincidence that your rifle would have seen sevice with two different DH units, but who knows?

[Tony S.]

I have attached a picture of my DH. My gun is a 1912 Erfurt all matching with the exception of the barrel which is a C/N barrel with 8,8? and w/o a serial number. On the front grip strap it has the unit "121.R.8.16."
<a href="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dh1912.jpg" target="_fullview"><img src="http://forums.lugerforum.com/lfupload/dh1912.jpg" width="400" alt="Click for fullsize image" /></a>

Tony S.

[Roadkill]

http://www.pzaufkl.de/totenkopf.htm

Im Ersten Weltkrieg wurde der Totenkopf als Verbandsabzeichen von einer Vielzahl deutscher Einheiten benutzt - vor allem von Sturmtruppen, Flammenwerfertrupps und Panzereinheiten.

(In the first world war the death's head was used as a unit symbol for a number of German units, above all assault Troops, flame thrower troops, and armored units)

Einige Piloten, darunter das Fliegerass Leutnant Georg von Hantelmann benutzten Varianten des Totenkopfs als pers�¶nliches Abzeichen.

( A few pilots, one of whom was the pilot ace Lt Georg Von Hantelman who used variants of the death's head as his personal symbol)

Gleich nach dem Ende der K�¤mpfe 1918 tauchte der Totenkopf wieder auf - diesmal auf den Helmen und Fahrzeugen einiger Freikorps.

(Immediately after the end of the war in 1918 the death head arose again, this time on the helmets and vehicles of some Freikorps)

Nicht zuletzt dadurch wurde der Totenkopf nicht nur zum Symbol des K�¤mpfertums und Selbstaufopferung, sondern auch f�¼r militaristischem Traditionalismus, Anti-Liberalismus und Anti-Bolschewismus.

(Lastly, the death head was not used only as a symbol of the warrior ethos and self sacrifice, but for military tradition, anti liberalism, and anti bolshevisim)

rk