Russian or Bulgarian?

JohnF · 01-28-2003, 10:13 AM

I saw this Luger yesterday at a dealer. It's in poor condition but I thought that the safety was interesting. The letters are cyrillic but I'm not sure if this is Russian or Bulgarian. The toggle was a mismatched Simson & Co, Suhl example. There was no stock lug. Here are some photos:
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/UnknownLeft.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/CyrillicSafety.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/UnknownRight.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/UnknownToggle.JPG

Dwight Gruber · 01-28-2003, 10:49 AM

The pistol you have pictured here would fall into the category of FrankenBulgarian. The frame, indeed, looks like a 1908 Bulgarian. If you have the opportunity to look at it again, note that it has no lanyard staple, and indeed has never had one (it was not removed, they were manufactured without them). If you can take off the grips, you should find a hole drilled through the frame at the bottom just in back of the magazine well--this was for a lanyard loop.

You don't say what is stamped above the receiver, if anything. A Bulgarian would have the DWM logo stamped there; the Bulgarian proof, a small standing lion, should be stamped on the right side. The gun pictured looks to have standard German proofs, although it is difficult to identify specifically which ones from the photograph.

A Bulgarian toggle would have the Bulgarian crest stamped where the DWM logo is normally found.

You can find pictures of a 1908 Bulgarian in Kenyon's "Lugers At Random" on pages 146-147, and pictures and history in Still's "Imperial Lugers", pp 201-207.

--Dwight

Ron Wood · 01-28-2003, 10:51 AM

In all probablility it is a 1908 Bulgarian. Some of these in poor condition when they were imported were stripped down for parts or reassembled with mismatched/replacement parts. Unless it has been ground off, the lack of a lanyard staple is a dead give-away. Some other things you could look for are: If it has not been ground or obscured by rust, there should be a rampant lion proof on the right side of the receiver; If it is a second series '08 Bulgarian there will be an upper case "C" suffix to the serial number; If you can remove the grips, there should be a hole in the frame at the heel of the grip for the lanyard ring, which is unique to the '08 Bulgarian. Since you didn't mention that there was a DWM logo over the chamber, I am assuming that it has been ground off or the whole cannon assembly has been swapped out. That is another feature that is unique to the '08 Bulgarian, it is the only crested Luger where the crest and the DWM have been switched between the toggle and the chamber.

Ron Wood · 01-28-2003, 10:53 AM

Is there an echo in here, or is Dwight just quicker on the draw than I am?!

JohnF · 01-28-2003, 11:20 AM

Thanks guys, Now I know what to look for in a real Bulgarian. I've ordered a copy of Kenyon and should have it soon - together with the two Stills that I don't have - Weimar and Imperial Lugers. Once I can read up better for myself I'll stop asking dumb questions - well maybe :-)

I forgot to mention the chamber - it looked like it had been ground and the only marking on it was an M over a 43, which appeared to be a later addition.

01-28-2003, 10:13 AM	#1
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Russian or Bulgarian? I saw this Luger yesterday at a dealer. It's in poor condition but I thought that the safety was interesting. The letters are cyrillic but I'm not sure if this is Russian or Bulgarian. The toggle was a mismatched Simson & Co, Suhl example. There was no stock lug. Here are some photos: http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/UnknownLeft.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/CyrillicSafety.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/UnknownRight.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/UnknownToggle.JPG

01-28-2003, 10:51 AM	#3
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	In all probablility it is a 1908 Bulgarian. Some of these in poor condition when they were imported were stripped down for parts or reassembled with mismatched/replacement parts. Unless it has been ground off, the lack of a lanyard staple is a dead give-away. Some other things you could look for are: If it has not been ground or obscured by rust, there should be a rampant lion proof on the right side of the receiver; If it is a second series '08 Bulgarian there will be an upper case "C" suffix to the serial number; If you can remove the grips, there should be a hole in the frame at the heel of the grip for the lanyard ring, which is unique to the '08 Bulgarian. Since you didn't mention that there was a DWM logo over the chamber, I am assuming that it has been ground off or the whole cannon assembly has been swapped out. That is another feature that is unique to the '08 Bulgarian, it is the only crested Luger where the crest and the DWM have been switched between the toggle and the chamber. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-28-2003, 10:53 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Is there an echo in here, or is Dwight just quicker on the draw than I am?! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-28-2003, 10:49 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	The pistol you have pictured here would fall into the category of FrankenBulgarian. The frame, indeed, looks like a 1908 Bulgarian. If you have the opportunity to look at it again, note that it has no lanyard staple, and indeed has never had one (it was not removed, they were manufactured without them). If you can take off the grips, you should find a hole drilled through the frame at the bottom just in back of the magazine well--this was for a lanyard loop. You don't say what is stamped above the receiver, if anything. A Bulgarian would have the DWM logo stamped there; the Bulgarian proof, a small standing lion, should be stamped on the right side. The gun pictured looks to have standard German proofs, although it is difficult to identify specifically which ones from the photograph. A Bulgarian toggle would have the Bulgarian crest stamped where the DWM logo is normally found. You can find pictures of a 1908 Bulgarian in Kenyon's "Lugers At Random" on pages 146-147, and pictures and history in Still's "Imperial Lugers", pp 201-207. --Dwight

01-28-2003, 11:20 AM	#5
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks guys, Now I know what to look for in a real Bulgarian. I've ordered a copy of Kenyon and should have it soon - together with the two Stills that I don't have - Weimar and Imperial Lugers. Once I can read up better for myself I'll stop asking dumb questions - well maybe :-) I forgot to mention the chamber - it looked like it had been ground and the only marking on it was an M over a 43, which appeared to be a later addition.