Pics of "Rickyboy"s Holster...

John D. · 10-23-2003, 03:25 PM

I'm posting these for Rick, who just sent me the pictures. His previous post notes:

Marked: "FRIEDR. WILK. SCHIEMER" , 1916 ELBERFELD

On one side of the flap, it has an "SS" SEAL , "16" and an "RZM" Seal. Pics are below. He'd also like to know what it may be worth..??

Navy · 10-23-2003, 03:34 PM

I believe that this is unquestionably fake.

Tom A

the gunman · 10-23-2003, 04:10 PM

no question about it its bad

Navy · 10-23-2003, 04:28 PM

It's worse than bad; its stupid.

Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 10-23-2003, 05:53 PM

Tom, Gunman, These opinions you give are somewhat criptic, correct though they are.

I am sure our new member in Buenos Aires would like to know why we are of this opinion.

The holster is a 1916 make and in itself is not suspect. Made during the first World War. It would have no reason to have these later marks applied except perhaps fantasy purposes or for fraud.

The RZM mark is relatively rare, this represents the agency responsible for placing manufacturing contracts and supervising quality control for the paramilitary forces of the NSDAP. This mark is seen most often on metal products. A letter would signify the company and numbers signify the class of goods and another number to identify the supplier.

The SS runes were not applied to everything the SS used and almost never on leather P-08 holsters.At least from what I have been able to observe.

The eagle on the closure strap at first looks like a Waffenampt but then peters out to? The tip of the closure strap is certainly an unusual place for any stamp.

These stamps were obviously applied sometime after the holster was made...Like twenty years after if they were authentic,which in my opinion they are not, but certainly many years later.

The holster by itself is quite nice for a 1916 and if these spurious marks were not present I would believe it's value would be in the $200-$250.00 range. With the marks I would say it is in the $150.00 to $175.00 range.

Rick, I hope this helps and Welcome to the Forum! Jerry Burney

rickyboy · 10-23-2003, 05:55 PM

i am not trying to ripp off anyone , i have received the holster with a 1900 luger , that came from a judge.

he was not involved in the luger business , so no attempt to screw me .

would you explain me why it is stupid/bad/fake , etc ??

thanks

rick

rickyboy · 10-23-2003, 06:01 PM

thank you jerry !!!

John Sabato · 10-23-2003, 06:16 PM

Rickyboy, welcome to the Lugerforum! Could you also provide photos of your Model 1900 Luger? we don't see too many of those...

... and Jerry thanks for your fine explanation of why the extra stamps on this otherwise genuine holster are very suspect...

Sometimes those of us who have been around the block a couple of times forget what it was like when we hadn't yet left the nest... everyone was a "newbie" at some point.

the gunman · 10-23-2003, 06:26 PM

Sorry to have been so blunt .I should have explaned
like lugerholsterrepair

rickyboy · 10-23-2003, 06:51 PM

i will email pics as soon as i get it , itÃ?Â´s at the gun shop yet

Navy · 10-23-2003, 10:43 PM

And my apologies also. Have been somewhat busy as of late.

The single reason why it is BOTH bogus and stupid is that it reveals the fakers total lack of understanding of the RZM procurement mission and organization.

RZM, in one of its major functions, was a quality assurance organization for procurement of commercial supplies and equipment to be used by the Nazi party. This function was analogous to the Heereswaffenampt for the Wehrmacht.

Military equipment, such as weapons, in the possession of German Military authorities, was occasionally transferred direct to NSDAP armed formations, such as the SA/SS during the pre-1939 period. After Sept 1, 1939, the Waffen SS was supplied with small arms through the Herreswaffenamt.

The holster depicted was previously accepted for use by the German Army during W.W.I. based on its date and maker mark. There is no reason for a piece of in-service or previously accepted military equipment to be subject to a procurement quality assurance inspection.

A second reason it is wrong is that all known SS marked holsters are known to be fake, as is most SS marked stuff.

When I was working in Warsaw Poland a few years back, one could go to the old city floh markt and buy anything SS one wanted. All of it was being manufactured a few blocks away and most of it looked *very* good.

Tom A

lugerholsterrepair · 10-24-2003, 01:43 AM

Thanks Tom, We all get to learn a little from these types of questions. Made me brush up on a subject! I too run short on time , I have plenty to do but this is the enjoyable part of my day, to explore a bit and be reminded we log onto the Forum to trade information. I depend on other Forum members to help me when I need it.I am always amazed at the depth of your knowledge!

You are right John, we all started at the beginning. I have been guilty of being flippant in the past but when a member writes in with a # in the 1600's he is probably looking to get his question answered without our sometimes caustic brevity. A short opinion or explanation is sometimes called for too....

I did not mean to highlight anyone's post, only to draw out more information on this interesting example. Thanks for all your input. Jerry Burney

Navy · 10-24-2003, 09:31 AM

Jerry,

Pls, no apology is necessary; I take no offense at your honest comment as I know none was intended.

Yesterday, between work and installing that motherboard in my laptop, I was, shall we say, somewhat "focused." That condition tends to make me a bit more terse than ususal. I am remiss in not affording our new member Rickeyboy the courtesey he deserves. For that I do apologize.

I have been advised that I have no people skills; I would posit that this is not completely true. My people skills are on par with my computer skills. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Tom A

John Sabato · 10-24-2003, 09:43 AM

At least you have finally mastered using the "emoticons" Tom ... Photo uploads can't be far behind!

Pete Ebbink · 10-24-2003, 01:18 PM

Hello Rickboy...

The holster also looks like it is for a 4" barreled luger while your 1900 model should, typically, have a 4-3/4" barrel length...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

10-23-2003, 03:25 PM	#1
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Pics of "Rickyboy"s Holster... I'm posting these for Rick, who just sent me the pictures. His previous post notes: Marked: "FRIEDR. WILK. SCHIEMER" , 1916 ELBERFELD On one side of the flap, it has an "SS" SEAL , "16" and an "RZM" Seal. Pics are below. He'd also like to know what it may be worth..??

10-23-2003, 05:53 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Tom, Gunman, These opinions you give are somewhat criptic, correct though they are. I am sure our new member in Buenos Aires would like to know why we are of this opinion. The holster is a 1916 make and in itself is not suspect. Made during the first World War. It would have no reason to have these later marks applied except perhaps fantasy purposes or for fraud. The RZM mark is relatively rare, this represents the agency responsible for placing manufacturing contracts and supervising quality control for the paramilitary forces of the NSDAP. This mark is seen most often on metal products. A letter would signify the company and numbers signify the class of goods and another number to identify the supplier. The SS runes were not applied to everything the SS used and almost never on leather P-08 holsters.At least from what I have been able to observe. The eagle on the closure strap at first looks like a Waffenampt but then peters out to? The tip of the closure strap is certainly an unusual place for any stamp. These stamps were obviously applied sometime after the holster was made...Like twenty years after if they were authentic,which in my opinion they are not, but certainly many years later. The holster by itself is quite nice for a 1916 and if these spurious marks were not present I would believe it's value would be in the $200-$250.00 range. With the marks I would say it is in the $150.00 to $175.00 range. Rick, I hope this helps and Welcome to the Forum! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-23-2003, 06:16 PM	#8
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Rickyboy, welcome to the Lugerforum! Could you also provide photos of your Model 1900 Luger? we don't see too many of those... ... and Jerry thanks for your fine explanation of why the extra stamps on this otherwise genuine holster are very suspect... Sometimes those of us who have been around the block a couple of times forget what it was like when we hadn't yet left the nest... everyone was a "newbie" at some point. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-24-2003, 01:43 AM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	Thanks Tom, We all get to learn a little from these types of questions. Made me brush up on a subject! I too run short on time , I have plenty to do but this is the enjoyable part of my day, to explore a bit and be reminded we log onto the Forum to trade information. I depend on other Forum members to help me when I need it.I am always amazed at the depth of your knowledge! You are right John, we all started at the beginning. I have been guilty of being flippant in the past but when a member writes in with a # in the 1600's he is probably looking to get his question answered without our sometimes caustic brevity. A short opinion or explanation is sometimes called for too.... I did not mean to highlight anyone's post, only to draw out more information on this interesting example. Thanks for all your input. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-24-2003, 09:43 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	At least you have finally mastered using the "emoticons" Tom ... Photo uploads can't be far behind! __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-23-2003, 03:34 PM	#2
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I believe that this is unquestionably fake. Tom A

10-23-2003, 04:10 PM	#3
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	no question about it its bad

10-23-2003, 04:28 PM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	It's worse than bad; its stupid. Tom A.

10-23-2003, 05:55 PM	#6
rickyboy User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i am not trying to ripp off anyone , i have received the holster with a 1900 luger , that came from a judge. he was not involved in the luger business , so no attempt to screw me . would you explain me why it is stupid/bad/fake , etc ?? thanks rick

10-23-2003, 06:01 PM	#7
rickyboy User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	thank you jerry !!!

10-23-2003, 06:26 PM	#9
the gunman User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Leland NC 28451 Posts: 1,017 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts	Sorry to have been so blunt .I should have explaned like lugerholsterrepair

10-23-2003, 06:51 PM	#10
rickyboy User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	i will email pics as soon as i get it , itÃ?Â´s at the gun shop yet

10-23-2003, 10:43 PM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	And my apologies also. Have been somewhat busy as of late. The single reason why it is BOTH bogus and stupid is that it reveals the fakers total lack of understanding of the RZM procurement mission and organization. RZM, in one of its major functions, was a quality assurance organization for procurement of commercial supplies and equipment to be used by the Nazi party. This function was analogous to the Heereswaffenampt for the Wehrmacht. Military equipment, such as weapons, in the possession of German Military authorities, was occasionally transferred direct to NSDAP armed formations, such as the SA/SS during the pre-1939 period. After Sept 1, 1939, the Waffen SS was supplied with small arms through the Herreswaffenamt. The holster depicted was previously accepted for use by the German Army during W.W.I. based on its date and maker mark. There is no reason for a piece of in-service or previously accepted military equipment to be subject to a procurement quality assurance inspection. A second reason it is wrong is that all known SS marked holsters are known to be fake, as is most SS marked stuff. When I was working in Warsaw Poland a few years back, one could go to the old city floh markt and buy anything SS one wanted. All of it was being manufactured a few blocks away and most of it looked very good. Tom A

10-24-2003, 09:31 AM	#13
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Jerry, Pls, no apology is necessary; I take no offense at your honest comment as I know none was intended. Yesterday, between work and installing that motherboard in my laptop, I was, shall we say, somewhat "focused." That condition tends to make me a bit more terse than ususal. I am remiss in not affording our new member Rickeyboy the courtesey he deserves. For that I do apologize. I have been advised that I have no people skills; I would posit that this is not completely true. My people skills are on par with my computer skills. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> Tom A

10-24-2003, 01:18 PM	#15
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Rickboy... The holster also looks like it is for a 4" barreled luger while your 1900 model should, typically, have a 4-3/4" barrel length... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />