A new one ! (a member and a Swiss Luger)

Robby · 12-02-2002, 11:06 AM

Nice and interresting to read you all and I am happy to join !
Passionate of the Luger since I recieved from my dad when I was 10 a beautifull silver Luger toy, I just realized my dream last week when I bought a splendid Swiss Luger model 1906/29 with the original holster and shoulder strap.
As I do not have any picture for the moment, here is it exact brother : http://www.swissrifles.com/~swissdagger/m0629.html
It has the Berner Waffenfabrik stamp ("F" and Swiss cross surrounded by a W )at the back of the frame (just under the reciever), an "ecusson" with the Swiss cross on the Breechblock, a Swiss cross under the barrel and the Bernerprobe stamp neat the serial number around the barrel. There is a "M" with a cros ontop before the serial number on the trigger plate. The serial is 59668.
Another detail is a "P" hammered in front of the trigger protection... What would the "P" mean and what would be the production year of this luger ? could you help me ?

For Mr Herb and his "Swiss expert needed" topic, the second mag I have has the same lip and the stylized "P". But it constantly fail to feed the cartridge correctly...

I will make some pictures soon... With my best regards,

Steve Richards · 12-02-2002, 09:08 PM

Welcome to our happy little forum! Be careful when removing the left grip. The upper back corner breaks very easily. If you are like the rest of us, you will soon have more Lugers.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Pete Ebbink · 12-02-2002, 09:25 PM

Hello Robby,

Welcome to the Luger Forum. If your 1929 W+F Bern w/ brown plastic grips is as nice as the one shown in your photo posting, you will have a fine Bern luger. I have posted four (4) photos below to help answer some of your questions.

This information and photos are taken from the very nice Swiss luger book written by Mr. Vitorrio M. Bobba, tiled "Parabellum - A Technical History Of Swiss Lugers". If you get a chance to buy this book new or used, you should do so. It is a large over-sized book with lots of beautiful photos of museum-quality swiss lugers. This book runs ~ $ 100.00 USD in new condition and is still sold through book sellers.

Onto your questions :

1. The serial number of your pistol (# 59668) places its production in the year 1940. A total of 2,420 lugers were made in 1940. Please see photo # 1, below, for data. Mr. Bobba also states that from 1929 to 1938 or 1940, most Bern lugers had red plastic grips and magazxine bottoms. In 1938 or 1939 through 1942 or 1943, Bern switched to brown plastic grips and magazine bottom. In 1942 or 1943, Bern switched to black plastic grips and magazine bottoms. So your luger "should" have brown "trim".

2. Photo # 2 shows the "cross/M" stamp mark you mentioned. This was the inspection stamp of the main Bern inspector, Colonel Muhlemann who worked and stamped pistols at Bern from 1929 through 1941. Again, you have the "correct' inspector's stamp for a 1940's produced luger with brown trim.

3. Photo # 2 also shows a "P" stamp mark. This is a stamp to signify the luger was released by the Swiss service (either military or police) for "private" sale to the public. The position of this "P" stamp varies on Berns; and having it stamped on the front of the trigger guard is one "official" location. Sometimes the stamp is only a "P" as your pistol has; others might read as "P-58" (or other dates...) which is meant to convey the gun was released for privatization in the year 1958.

4. Photo # 3 shows the front frame well of a Bern luger (at the far right-side of the photo).

5. Photo # 4 shows this front frame well in detail. In this photo you will see "6.40" stamped at the bottom of the well. This confirms the gun in the photo was produced in June of 1940.

When you get a chance, take-down your Bern and look in your front frame well. This will confirm the exact month in the year 1940 your pistol was made.

Sorry to have written so much...hope this info. is of help to you.

Be sure to post photos when you get your new Bern home !!!

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Ron Wood · 12-03-2002, 03:40 AM

Good post Pete. How does it feel to graduate from "newbie" to "informed resource"?! And in less than a year.

Robby · 12-03-2002, 07:32 AM

Many thanks for your warm welcome and for all those "must to know" informations ! This is no more amateurism but professionalism !...
Following your informations, I will take it apart again (and take care with the grips)and search all those details. As you said it the grip is brown plastic and has the W+F logo on it. The year 1940 matches the holster date !
Maybe I could bring you some info too: On the back of the holster, between the belt straps it is written :
A VOLKEN
SATTLER
FLÃ??ELEN
40

And I found here in Switzerland an Alois (Arnold) Volken, "Sattlerei und Bettwaren" (Saddler and holster maker) with the address : Axenstrasse 32, 6454 FlÃ?Â¼elen URI Switzerland. A phone number if you would be interrested 0041 41 870 3148. I believe Arnold is the father's name who build the holster for my Luger !

Here are some pictures and I just fount out I missed the one with the Swiss cross "Ecusson" ontop and which was one of the main reason I bought This one !

Please find here the WaffenFabrik Stampel :

The Serial number with Colonel Muhlemann proof (as you can see it differs from the one you showed...):

The barrel proof :

And the P stampel allowing a public sale. Just under is the famous Stylized P on the Mag (with lip)

I'll make some more pictures soon... And again, many thanks and best regards. Robby <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

Dwight Gruber · 12-03-2002, 10:58 AM

Thank you very much for the detail closeups, it is very interesting to see how this model differs from the Lugers most of us are familiaar with.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 12-03-2002, 12:54 PM

I was particulary impressed with the photos and the "feature" that suprised me is the cut in the front of the sideplate that exposes the end of the disconnector plunger on the sear bar. I would think that would make these moving parts more susceptible to dust/dirt contamination... but OTOH it does offer a view of the trigger linkage function that standard German made Lugers don't provide...

VVVVVEEERRRYYYY Interesting! Thanks again for the photos.

Edward Tinker · 12-03-2002, 02:18 PM

Great pictures Robby!

and Welcome to the forum!

Pete Ebbink · 12-03-2002, 07:24 PM

Robby,

Not to worry about the variance in the crown/M stamp.

In the Bobba book, they are photos of 4-5 different styles of Muhlemann's stamp over the years.

I would imagine as one stamp wore out, new ones with different styles were made. Your particular stamp with its "scriptive" M is shown on several guns in Bobba's book.

What a great looking 1929 W+F Bern luger !

Thanks for taking the time to show us your nice photos...

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Robby · 12-04-2002, 06:27 AM

Thanks you all for your enthousiasm and comments !

I followed your advise and took appart my Luger and look for a manufacture date... It's an October 1940 production (10.40.) as you said it !
But Oh surprise ! when looking with a magnifier I found many other stamps :
All the in-side parts of the Luger are stamped "CN+" (+ = Swiss cross) except the trigger stamped "CW" and the coupling link stamped "CG+".
Under the center toggle link is another "CN+" and an "S" into a circle....
Could those stamps be related to the person who build those parts ?
I found another beautiful stamp inside the bottom back of the main frame (behind the recoil spring lever) and on a bottom side of the reciever are a kind of "N" with a riffle with baionet thru it... I made a fast drawing of it :

I will try to make some pictures and post it for you.

This weekend in Lausanne (city near Geneva, Switzerland) there is a fire-arms trade fair (http://www.bourseauxarmes.ch/) and I will look after the Luger tool and some wooden grip panels... If any of you are looking for something special, I'll be glad to have a look and put you in contact with a provider... ?

Best regards,
Robby

Pete Ebbink · 12-04-2002, 06:19 PM

Hello again, Robby !

"CN" stands for chrome nickel steel; of which the part that is stamped as such is made from.

"CV" stands for chrome vanadium.

"CW" and "CG" are other alloys, but the Bobba book does not say specifically what those alloys are.

The "encircled S" is an inspector's control mark.

The "rifle-N" stamp stands for the firm, SIG Neuhausen; who made parts for the Bern folks, usually the 1929 Bern frame.

If you find any luger take-down/screwdriver combination tools which are stamped with the Swiss federal cross at the gun fair this weekend, buy as many as you can and sell them to us here on the Forum. I will buy at least two from you !!! They are very rare to find here in the USA.

Finally, if you get a chance, you should really try to buy the book by Bobba. It will be invaluable to you as you continue to buy other Swiss lugers (which I have no doubt you will do...).

Following is a photo of my copy of my book just to show you what it looks like and my small, "starter" Swiss collection...

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Robby · 12-05-2002, 05:59 AM

Many thanks again Pete for all those valuable informations !
As soon as I find Bobba's book I'll buy it...

And Yes, more I know about my Luger and more I become passionate. As it is so neatly and precisely manufactured I feel proud to own such a nice piece of mechanics ! And your splendid looking Lugers are tempting me to start to learn and search for more...!

Concerning the Swiss Luger conbination tool, I'll go to the fair saturday and look after some... I will let you know.

With my best regards,
Robby

Robby · 12-10-2002, 04:39 AM

Hello Pete,

I went to the gun fair and asked for the luger take-down/screwdriver combination tools with the Swiss federal cross stamped on it and I was told by a very knowledgeable person of the Swiss army weapons that the Take-down tool was not in use in the Swiss army. So he told me that there are no tools with the Swiss cross Stamp available!
The only tool provided with the Luger in the Swiss army was the cleaning set as you have it on your picture where a screwdriver is available. He had a box full of those Take-down tools some without marking and many with the german stamps for the P08... So I did'nt take any.

With my best regards,
Robby [img]frown.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 12-15-2002, 12:07 PM

Robby,

Take a look at the short discussion thread below in this Swiss section about these take-down tools, back on 9-19-02. There have been a couple swiss tools photographed in some respected author's books by Mr. Still and Mr. Bender.

This is only my guess; but maybe these DWM swiss lugers were issued with cross-marked tools, also made/issued by DWM...(?)

Regards,

Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Robby · 12-18-2002, 06:50 AM

Nice challenge Pete !

Your guess is mine...
I take it and will try to find some more infos about it here in switzerland. I'll let you know...

Best regards,
Robby

12-02-2002, 11:06 AM	#1
Robby User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A new one ! (a member and a Swiss Luger) Nice and interresting to read you all and I am happy to join ! Passionate of the Luger since I recieved from my dad when I was 10 a beautifull silver Luger toy, I just realized my dream last week when I bought a splendid Swiss Luger model 1906/29 with the original holster and shoulder strap. As I do not have any picture for the moment, here is it exact brother : http://www.swissrifles.com/~swissdagger/m0629.html It has the Berner Waffenfabrik stamp ("F" and Swiss cross surrounded by a W )at the back of the frame (just under the reciever), an "ecusson" with the Swiss cross on the Breechblock, a Swiss cross under the barrel and the Bernerprobe stamp neat the serial number around the barrel. There is a "M" with a cros ontop before the serial number on the trigger plate. The serial is 59668. Another detail is a "P" hammered in front of the trigger protection... What would the "P" mean and what would be the production year of this luger ? could you help me ? For Mr Herb and his "Swiss expert needed" topic, the second mag I have has the same lip and the stylized "P". But it constantly fail to feed the cartridge correctly... I will make some pictures soon... With my best regards,

12-03-2002, 03:40 AM	#4
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	Good post Pete. How does it feel to graduate from "newbie" to "informed resource"?! And in less than a year. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

12-03-2002, 12:54 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	I was particulary impressed with the photos and the "feature" that suprised me is the cut in the front of the sideplate that exposes the end of the disconnector plunger on the sear bar. I would think that would make these moving parts more susceptible to dust/dirt contamination... but OTOH it does offer a view of the trigger linkage function that standard German made Lugers don't provide... VVVVVEEERRRYYYY Interesting! Thanks again for the photos. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

12-03-2002, 02:18 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Great pictures Robby! and Welcome to the forum! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

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12-02-2002, 09:08 PM	#2
Steve Richards User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Beaverton, Oregon Posts: 487 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Welcome to our happy little forum! Be careful when removing the left grip. The upper back corner breaks very easily. If you are like the rest of us, you will soon have more Lugers. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

12-02-2002, 09:25 PM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Robby, Welcome to the Luger Forum. If your 1929 W+F Bern w/ brown plastic grips is as nice as the one shown in your photo posting, you will have a fine Bern luger. I have posted four (4) photos below to help answer some of your questions. This information and photos are taken from the very nice Swiss luger book written by Mr. Vitorrio M. Bobba, tiled "Parabellum - A Technical History Of Swiss Lugers". If you get a chance to buy this book new or used, you should do so. It is a large over-sized book with lots of beautiful photos of museum-quality swiss lugers. This book runs ~ $ 100.00 USD in new condition and is still sold through book sellers. Onto your questions : 1. The serial number of your pistol (# 59668) places its production in the year 1940. A total of 2,420 lugers were made in 1940. Please see photo # 1, below, for data. Mr. Bobba also states that from 1929 to 1938 or 1940, most Bern lugers had red plastic grips and magazxine bottoms. In 1938 or 1939 through 1942 or 1943, Bern switched to brown plastic grips and magazine bottom. In 1942 or 1943, Bern switched to black plastic grips and magazine bottoms. So your luger "should" have brown "trim". 2. Photo # 2 shows the "cross/M" stamp mark you mentioned. This was the inspection stamp of the main Bern inspector, Colonel Muhlemann who worked and stamped pistols at Bern from 1929 through 1941. Again, you have the "correct' inspector's stamp for a 1940's produced luger with brown trim. 3. Photo # 2 also shows a "P" stamp mark. This is a stamp to signify the luger was released by the Swiss service (either military or police) for "private" sale to the public. The position of this "P" stamp varies on Berns; and having it stamped on the front of the trigger guard is one "official" location. Sometimes the stamp is only a "P" as your pistol has; others might read as "P-58" (or other dates...) which is meant to convey the gun was released for privatization in the year 1958. 4. Photo # 3 shows the front frame well of a Bern luger (at the far right-side of the photo). 5. Photo # 4 shows this front frame well in detail. In this photo you will see "6.40" stamped at the bottom of the well. This confirms the gun in the photo was produced in June of 1940. When you get a chance, take-down your Bern and look in your front frame well. This will confirm the exact month in the year 1940 your pistol was made. Sorry to have written so much...hope this info. is of help to you. Be sure to post photos when you get your new Bern home !!! Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

12-03-2002, 07:32 AM	#5
Robby User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many thanks for your warm welcome and for all those "must to know" informations ! This is no more amateurism but professionalism !... Following your informations, I will take it apart again (and take care with the grips)and search all those details. As you said it the grip is brown plastic and has the W+F logo on it. The year 1940 matches the holster date ! Maybe I could bring you some info too: On the back of the holster, between the belt straps it is written : A VOLKEN SATTLER FLÃ??ELEN 40 And I found here in Switzerland an Alois (Arnold) Volken, "Sattlerei und Bettwaren" (Saddler and holster maker) with the address : Axenstrasse 32, 6454 FlÃ?Â¼elen URI Switzerland. A phone number if you would be interrested 0041 41 870 3148. I believe Arnold is the father's name who build the holster for my Luger ! Here are some pictures and I just fount out I missed the one with the Swiss cross "Ecusson" ontop and which was one of the main reason I bought This one ! Please find here the WaffenFabrik Stampel : The Serial number with Colonel Muhlemann proof (as you can see it differs from the one you showed...): The barrel proof : And the P stampel allowing a public sale. Just under is the famous Stylized P on the Mag (with lip) I'll make some more pictures soon... And again, many thanks and best regards. Robby <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />

12-03-2002, 10:58 AM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,318 Times in 431 Posts	Thank you very much for the detail closeups, it is very interesting to see how this model differs from the Lugers most of us are familiaar with. --Dwight

12-03-2002, 07:24 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Robby, Not to worry about the variance in the crown/M stamp. In the Bobba book, they are photos of 4-5 different styles of Muhlemann's stamp over the years. I would imagine as one stamp wore out, new ones with different styles were made. Your particular stamp with its "scriptive" M is shown on several guns in Bobba's book. What a great looking 1929 W+F Bern luger ! Thanks for taking the time to show us your nice photos... Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

12-04-2002, 06:27 AM	#10
Robby User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks you all for your enthousiasm and comments ! I followed your advise and took appart my Luger and look for a manufacture date... It's an October 1940 production (10.40.) as you said it ! But Oh surprise ! when looking with a magnifier I found many other stamps : All the in-side parts of the Luger are stamped "CN+" (+ = Swiss cross) except the trigger stamped "CW" and the coupling link stamped "CG+". Under the center toggle link is another "CN+" and an "S" into a circle.... Could those stamps be related to the person who build those parts ? I found another beautiful stamp inside the bottom back of the main frame (behind the recoil spring lever) and on a bottom side of the reciever are a kind of "N" with a riffle with baionet thru it... I made a fast drawing of it : I will try to make some pictures and post it for you. This weekend in Lausanne (city near Geneva, Switzerland) there is a fire-arms trade fair (http://www.bourseauxarmes.ch/) and I will look after the Luger tool and some wooden grip panels... If any of you are looking for something special, I'll be glad to have a look and put you in contact with a provider... ? Best regards, Robby

12-04-2002, 06:19 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello again, Robby ! "CN" stands for chrome nickel steel; of which the part that is stamped as such is made from. "CV" stands for chrome vanadium. "CW" and "CG" are other alloys, but the Bobba book does not say specifically what those alloys are. The "encircled S" is an inspector's control mark. The "rifle-N" stamp stands for the firm, SIG Neuhausen; who made parts for the Bern folks, usually the 1929 Bern frame. If you find any luger take-down/screwdriver combination tools which are stamped with the Swiss federal cross at the gun fair this weekend, buy as many as you can and sell them to us here on the Forum. I will buy at least two from you !!! They are very rare to find here in the USA. Finally, if you get a chance, you should really try to buy the book by Bobba. It will be invaluable to you as you continue to buy other Swiss lugers (which I have no doubt you will do...). Following is a photo of my copy of my book just to show you what it looks like and my small, "starter" Swiss collection... Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

12-05-2002, 05:59 AM	#12
Robby User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Many thanks again Pete for all those valuable informations ! As soon as I find Bobba's book I'll buy it... And Yes, more I know about my Luger and more I become passionate. As it is so neatly and precisely manufactured I feel proud to own such a nice piece of mechanics ! And your splendid looking Lugers are tempting me to start to learn and search for more...! Concerning the Swiss Luger conbination tool, I'll go to the fair saturday and look after some... I will let you know. With my best regards, Robby

12-10-2002, 04:39 AM	#13
Robby User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Pete, I went to the gun fair and asked for the luger take-down/screwdriver combination tools with the Swiss federal cross stamped on it and I was told by a very knowledgeable person of the Swiss army weapons that the Take-down tool was not in use in the Swiss army. So he told me that there are no tools with the Swiss cross Stamp available! The only tool provided with the Luger in the Swiss army was the cleaning set as you have it on your picture where a screwdriver is available. He had a box full of those Take-down tools some without marking and many with the german stamps for the P08... So I did'nt take any. With my best regards, Robby [img]frown.gif[/img]

12-15-2002, 12:07 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Robby, Take a look at the short discussion thread below in this Swiss section about these take-down tools, back on 9-19-02. There have been a couple swiss tools photographed in some respected author's books by Mr. Still and Mr. Bender. This is only my guess; but maybe these DWM swiss lugers were issued with cross-marked tools, also made/issued by DWM...(?) Regards, Pete... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

12-18-2002, 06:50 AM	#15
Robby User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Nice challenge Pete ! Your guess is mine... I take it and will try to find some more infos about it here in switzerland. I'll let you know... Best regards, Robby