Punctured Primer

Leen · 04-21-2013, 12:53 PM

Hello,

Last week I have fired 50 rounds of magtech 115 grain ammo trough my p08. It lookes like the firing pin has slammed trough the primer leaving a black hole.

Is this something to worry about?

lugerholsterrepair · 04-21-2013, 04:06 PM

I would suspect the ammunition as being too powerful. Is the primer flattened?

mrerick · 04-21-2013, 05:00 PM

Depending on which era Luger you have, the blowback through a primer perforation could blow out the rear of the breech block where the firing pin retainer locks in. Check that for damage. The problem could be a headspace issue. Either where the chamber ledge fits up against the cartridge front edge, or through some problem in the toggle train. I wouldn't shoot a pistol that does this until the cause is established. Marc

lugerholsterrepair · 04-21-2013, 05:38 PM

If this happened on one cartridge out of 50.. again..I wouldn't look immediately at the pistol being faulty.
Marc is correct in that there could now be damage caused by it particularly if you are using a WW1 vintage Luger. If it is a Mauser with the fluted firing pin ..not so much. More information about the pistol and cartridge is needed.

Leen · 04-22-2013, 12:25 PM

Thanks for your replies. The primer is not frattened, it just seems that the firing pin has perforated the primer.

The pistol is an byf 41 Mauser pistol. Not all of the primers are perforated but more like 8 or 10 out of 50 rounds.

The ammo I was using was Magtech 115 grains HPT.

DavidJayUden · 04-22-2013, 12:31 PM

It might help to photo the striker firing pin assembly. I'm curious if it has the usual shape or might be too pointed.
Try a different brand of ammo. Can't hurt.
dju

lugerholsterrepair · 04-22-2013, 12:54 PM

One is one thing..8 or 10 is another. Pierced primers are a serious issue. I would take a close look at all aspects of the barrel and bolt..firing pin etc. Look for any brass shaving obstructing the bore/chamber area..clean this well..scrub the chamber with a bore brush. I don't believe your pistol has the stepped chamber..it may be tapered. Disasemble the bolt..push the firing pin forward in the pin hole and see how far it protrudes. Inspect the shoulders of the pin. Look at your FP spring too.

The first thought is overpowered ammunition when you get pierced primers. That's why I asked about flattening. Flattening is an indication of too much cup pressure.

It's a matter of elimination until you decide if it's caused by ammo or the pistol. If you fire some Winchester White box and get a pierced primer..it's back to the pistol and as Marc indicated, could be a headspace problem. I would want to eliminate ammo after a close inspection of the toggle train.

mrerick · 04-22-2013, 05:37 PM

I've been assuming a 9mm Luger pistol, which your 41 byf should be. All 9mm Luger headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge. The stepped chamber was a DWM innovation to further seal the chamber during firing. It would be good to photograph how far the cartridges are protruding from the barrel breech. Be careful to remove the toggle train if you do this with a live cartridge, and treat it as a loaded gun.

Thanks to the fluted firing pin that should be in this pistol, you probably didn't have breech block damage.

There is definitely something wrong if you are piercing this high a percentage of primers.

If this is not an all matching gun, be aware that the wrong size parts may have been installed by someone (there were two breech / receiver lengths).

Follow Jerry's advice, and get a good look at things first...

Marc

Leen · 04-23-2013, 04:42 AM

I have recently fired 100 Lapua 9mm round trough the p08, and back then no problems occured.

The firing pin that`s in my gun in an WW1 tipe, could this couse the problem? I do have a new WW2 firing pin, which I give a try.

When I have the time I`ll make some photo`s

Sieger · 04-23-2013, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leen

I have recently fired 100 Lapua 9mm round trough the p08, and back then no problems occured.

The firing pin that`s in my gun in an WW1 tipe, could this couse the problem? I do have a new WW2 firing pin, which I give a try.

When I have the time I`ll make some photo`s

Hi:

It sounds like you have a mis-matched shooter there.

Is the tip of your firing pin smooth? If not, you may want to spend a few seconds with some very fine paper and smooth it a bit (don't remove a lot of material).

The comments are correct, the gas blowing out of the primer is very dangerous to the health of your Luger.

Take care of this problem immediately!!!

Sieger

JD · 04-23-2013, 04:44 PM

My Finnish luger will do this with some old S&B ammo that I have. Just a very tiny pinhole in the center of the firing pin indent. Just enough to turn the indent black, but not enough to leak any significant amount of gas into the toggle. Inspecting the firing pin assembly showed minimal powder residue and no damage. Switching to other types of ammo and the problem goes away...

There are no signs of high pressure with the S&B ammo, and actually it seems to be very low pressure with a chronographed velocity of no more than 1000 fps with the 115 grain bullet, and sometimes not quite enough Omph to completely cycle the action...

Leen · 04-24-2013, 03:43 AM

JD I have the same problem. I switched from Lapua ammo to Magtech and then the problems started. I have some S&B ammo and Geco in my safe. So I`ll try the pistol with that this week.

I`ll check every case that comes out of it.

Maby magtech uses verry thin primers.

sheepherder · 04-24-2013, 10:49 AM

This thread reminds me of an old James Bond book I read back in the 60's. Ian Fleming was touted as being firearms-proficient, but he had James as modifying his .25 Beretta by filing the firing pin to a point...

It may be a wild shot (sorry about the pun), but check your firing pin against a good one and make sure the end is rounded and not a pin-point...Some ignorant Bond fan may have 'improved' it...

Ron Smith · 04-25-2013, 01:31 PM

Magtech ammo is too hot for a Luger. Use S&B or Winchester white box.

Leen · 05-01-2013, 08:48 AM

I have tested the ammo, by adding some tape on the back
of the receiver. The toggle did nog damage the tape, so
the ammo should be ok.

nukem556 · 05-01-2013, 10:42 AM

Almost certainly the firing pin....and once you've had a pierced primer it's likely you'll have more as the escaping gases flame cut the pin tip into a rough jagged shape...as others have said, try to reprofile and smooth the tip.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-01-2013, 10:44 AM

I switched from Lapua ammo to Magtech and then the problems started..Does that tell you something?

I have recently fired 100 Lapua 9mm round trough the p08, and back then no problems occured.

04-21-2013, 12:53 PM	#1
Leen User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Punctured Primer Hello, Last week I have fired 50 rounds of magtech 115 grain ammo trough my p08. It lookes like the firing pin has slammed trough the primer leaving a black hole. Is this something to worry about?

04-21-2013, 04:06 PM	#2
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I would suspect the ammunition as being too powerful. Is the primer flattened? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-21-2013, 05:00 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Depending on which era Luger you have, the blowback through a primer perforation could blow out the rear of the breech block where the firing pin retainer locks in. Check that for damage. The problem could be a headspace issue. Either where the chamber ledge fits up against the cartridge front edge, or through some problem in the toggle train. I wouldn't shoot a pistol that does this until the cause is established. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-21-2013, 05:38 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	If this happened on one cartridge out of 50.. again..I wouldn't look immediately at the pistol being faulty. Marc is correct in that there could now be damage caused by it particularly if you are using a WW1 vintage Luger. If it is a Mauser with the fluted firing pin ..not so much. More information about the pistol and cartridge is needed. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-22-2013, 12:54 PM	#7
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	One is one thing..8 or 10 is another. Pierced primers are a serious issue. I would take a close look at all aspects of the barrel and bolt..firing pin etc. Look for any brass shaving obstructing the bore/chamber area..clean this well..scrub the chamber with a bore brush. I don't believe your pistol has the stepped chamber..it may be tapered. Disasemble the bolt..push the firing pin forward in the pin hole and see how far it protrudes. Inspect the shoulders of the pin. Look at your FP spring too. The first thought is overpowered ammunition when you get pierced primers. That's why I asked about flattening. Flattening is an indication of too much cup pressure. It's a matter of elimination until you decide if it's caused by ammo or the pistol. If you fire some Winchester White box and get a pierced primer..it's back to the pistol and as Marc indicated, could be a headspace problem. I would want to eliminate ammo after a close inspection of the toggle train. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-22-2013, 12:25 PM	#5
Leen User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for your replies. The primer is not frattened, it just seems that the firing pin has perforated the primer. The pistol is an byf 41 Mauser pistol. Not all of the primers are perforated but more like 8 or 10 out of 50 rounds. The ammo I was using was Magtech 115 grains HPT.

04-22-2013, 12:31 PM	#6
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It might help to photo the striker firing pin assembly. I'm curious if it has the usual shape or might be too pointed. Try a different brand of ammo. Can't hurt. dju

04-22-2013, 05:37 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I've been assuming a 9mm Luger pistol, which your 41 byf should be. All 9mm Luger headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge. The stepped chamber was a DWM innovation to further seal the chamber during firing. It would be good to photograph how far the cartridges are protruding from the barrel breech. Be careful to remove the toggle train if you do this with a live cartridge, and treat it as a loaded gun. Thanks to the fluted firing pin that should be in this pistol, you probably didn't have breech block damage. There is definitely something wrong if you are piercing this high a percentage of primers. If this is not an all matching gun, be aware that the wrong size parts may have been installed by someone (there were two breech / receiver lengths). Follow Jerry's advice, and get a good look at things first... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-23-2013, 04:42 AM	#9
Leen User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have recently fired 100 Lapua 9mm round trough the p08, and back then no problems occured. The firing pin that`s in my gun in an WW1 tipe, could this couse the problem? I do have a new WW2 firing pin, which I give a try. When I have the time I`ll make some photo`s

04-23-2013, 04:44 PM	#11
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	My Finnish luger will do this with some old S&B ammo that I have. Just a very tiny pinhole in the center of the firing pin indent. Just enough to turn the indent black, but not enough to leak any significant amount of gas into the toggle. Inspecting the firing pin assembly showed minimal powder residue and no damage. Switching to other types of ammo and the problem goes away... There are no signs of high pressure with the S&B ammo, and actually it seems to be very low pressure with a chronographed velocity of no more than 1000 fps with the 115 grain bullet, and sometimes not quite enough Omph to completely cycle the action...

04-24-2013, 03:43 AM	#12
Leen User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	JD I have the same problem. I switched from Lapua ammo to Magtech and then the problems started. I have some S&B ammo and Geco in my safe. So I`ll try the pistol with that this week. I`ll check every case that comes out of it. Maby magtech uses verry thin primers.

04-24-2013, 10:49 AM	#13
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	This thread reminds me of an old James Bond book I read back in the 60's. Ian Fleming was touted as being firearms-proficient, but he had James as modifying his .25 Beretta by filing the firing pin to a point... It may be a wild shot (sorry about the pun), but check your firing pin against a good one and make sure the end is rounded and not a pin-point...Some ignorant Bond fan may have 'improved' it... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

04-25-2013, 01:31 PM	#14
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Magtech ammo is too hot for a Luger. Use S&B or Winchester white box. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-01-2013, 08:48 AM	#15
Leen User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have tested the ammo, by adding some tape on the back of the receiver. The toggle did nog damage the tape, so the ammo should be ok.

05-01-2013, 10:42 AM	#16
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	Almost certainly the firing pin....and once you've had a pierced primer it's likely you'll have more as the escaping gases flame cut the pin tip into a rough jagged shape...as others have said, try to reprofile and smooth the tip.

05-01-2013, 10:44 AM	#17
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,940 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I switched from Lapua ammo to Magtech and then the problems started..Does that tell you something? I have recently fired 100 Lapua 9mm round trough the p08, and back then no problems occured. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 l[email protected] 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."