Import Marks

Pistol · 12-08-2016, 08:10 PM

I was looking at an Imperial luger that looks very nice, but it has a Joe Salter Down East Antiques import mark under the barrel. How much, if any, does this decrease the value? There is no Made in Germany mark. Just the more recent Salter mark.

mrerick · 12-08-2016, 08:36 PM

A very visible "billboard" style import mark would break the deal for me on a collectible pistol.

I would treat it as a "shooter" price wise.

A very discrete import mark might not affect my interest as much. Perhaps like those being done in very small type in the magazine well...

Marc

Edward Tinker · 12-08-2016, 08:49 PM

any import marking turns me off - that said, in reality it shouldn't, its just part of the guns history, but any marking (import) will drive the price way down.

I wonder if it will matter less as a new generation grows up on all the tokeravs, Maks, Mosins etc that have all been import marked...

DonVoigt · 12-08-2016, 09:38 PM

If it is a "common" piece- look for another- well, unless it is a real bargain.

If a rare or key piece, I can and will overlook an import marking. JMHO.

Eugen · 12-08-2016, 11:52 PM

Import marks are an unfortunate government regulatory requirement and a regretable necessity for many weapons.

I have a very small import mark on one of my non Luger pistols. The particular pistol is a beautiful work of art. But, the import mark is a mood killing distraction....like being distracted by a giant pimple on the face of a scantily clad Scarlett Johansson.

My personal opinion is that an important marks reduces the value anywhere from 15-40% and is dependent on the mood of the buyer and the rarity of the gun.

ithacaartist · 12-09-2016, 03:10 PM

Quote:

...like being distracted by a giant pimple on the face of a scantily clad Scarlett Johansson.

I would notice, but I'm not sure how distracted I would actually be!

Bill_in_VA · 12-09-2016, 09:14 PM

Unless it's it's an incredibly rare specimen, a modern import mark immediately puts it into the "shooter" category for me and reduces the value/price significantly.

Pistol · 12-09-2016, 09:44 PM

Well, I was afraid of that. It is a shame because it looks good with a nice imperial holster, rare marker on imperial tool, and two decent early imperial mags. Story is that it was captured by Canadian soldier. Then later imported in the recent past by Salter.

DonVoigt · 12-09-2016, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistol

Well, I was afraid of that. It is a shame because it looks good with a nice imperial holster, rare marker on imperial tool, and two decent early imperial mags. Story is that it was captured by Canadian soldier. Then later imported in the recent past by Salter.

Depends on how it "speaks" to you (and the price!).

Sammler · 12-09-2016, 10:01 PM

Hello,

Location, location! Sounds like a real estate sales line, but it has a lot to do with an imported gun`s value. Years ago, I had nice Lugers imported from Germany by Simpson Ltd. I talked to them about the markings and location (now, this was 17 years ago). They worked with me and the Simpson Ltd. marking was electro pencilled in the magazine well--invisible from any outside viewing. This kept the gun`s high value. I think there was a change in that rule from the AFTE in subsequent years with the import marks to be placed outside of the gun and stamped as well. Now, the value is lowered considerably. If I am wrong, I surely would like to hear from someone who knows more about this than I.

Edward Tinker · 12-09-2016, 10:36 PM

Sammler, I agree that the desirability of a marking being more hidden is greater, but I would not think the value would be as high? I agree with you that a larger billboard turns me off.

What I have noticed is that markings were smaller, got huge for a while, and now seem to depend on who puts them on. I know there are sizes of numbers/letters required, yet it sure seems that like I said, depends on who puts them there...

Pistol · 12-10-2016, 09:14 AM

Sammler - I saw photos of some of the Simpson's smaller more inconspicuous markings inside the magwell. Those were tastefully done. And I did read the laws changed to where the markings had to be more visible. The way Simpson's did it was nice. You could barely see them and only if you were looking for it.

Ed- are you saying that even hidden, inconspicuous marks still reduce the value?

This luger in question has the larger Salter markings on the underside of the barrel. Other than that it is a very nice luger. It has the Böhler Steel barrels marking also. Good halos on serial #. One mag appears to be one of the less common early imperial blued mags. It has no serial #, but a crown (Erfurt proof/mark?) on the lower portion of the wood bottom. I read on this forum that some think these blued wood bottom mags are Dutch, others are of the opinion that they are early imperial mags.

I guess one could argue the import mark is part of its history, as being captured by a Canadian Vet, then imported into US at a later date.

Unfortunately, I did not realize a manufacturer import mark would regulate it to a "shooter" category.

DonVoigt · 12-10-2016, 10:53 AM

"Unfortunately, I did not realize a manufacturer import mark would regulate it to a "shooter" category."

That is one guy's opinion; like all things "luger" - it depends! JMHO.

Bill_in_VA · 12-10-2016, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pistol

[...] Unfortunately, I did not realize a manufacturer import mark would regulate it to a "shooter" category.

I don't think anyone is talking about manufacturer's markings (i.e., those markings applied by the manufacturer at the time of production.) The "Made in Belgium/Assembled in Portugal/Browning Arms Co./Provo, Utah" markings on my Mark III High Power aren't importers' markings; they're manufacturer's markings.
The ones I and many others refer to as "importer markings/stamps" are those appiled by the importer under BATF direction, e.g., "CAI. ST.ALB.VT/ GERMANY 9MM", or "SDI Swan, VT/Argentina 7.5mm." Those weren't applied by the original manufacturer.
Speaking strictly for me, yes, those kinds of import stamps DO put it directly into the "shooter" category. My f-block byf 42 is all-matching (minus the magazine) but because it's got a big old hairy Century Arms import stamp on the underside of the barrel it's a shooter, not one of my collectibles.
YMMV

Pistol · 12-10-2016, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_in_VA

The ones I and many others refer to as "importer markings/stamps" are those appiled by the importer under BATF direction, e.g., "CAI. ST.ALB.VT/ GERMANY 9MM", or "SDI Swan, VT/Argentina 7.5mm." Those weren't applied by the original manufacturer.
YMMV

That is what I meant Bill. "import", not "manufacturer" markings. Poor word choice on my part.

DonVoigt · 12-10-2016, 03:05 PM

Again,
it is still just "opinion"; there are import marks and then there are ugly import marks- each person must decide for their self if such is
a deal killer or deserving of a significant price reduction.

Some pieces are so rare or desireable that an import marking, while not desireable, is a fact of life.

For example a 1914 DWM Artillery or a GL prototype or presentation piece does not become a shooter just because it has an import marking- JMHO.
Common "Nazi" Mauser lugers may become shooters to some if import marked.

Others can have their own opinion, but it does not make it so.

DavidJayUden · 12-10-2016, 03:11 PM

If ugly import marks are a turn-off, don't even consider a war trophy that the Brits got ahold of. Stamps everywhere. That must me how they reduced unemployment...
dju

ChannelIsles · 12-10-2016, 03:15 PM

When my S code was 'found' in the UK a few years ago, in order to export it, it needed to be proof fired & stamped.
Whilst the norm would be various stamping as below:

It thankfully found a considerate section 5 dealer who arranged for the single BNP Birmingham proof stamp placed under the grip.
In these unavoidable circumstances, the alternative being deactivated, I think it came off rather well with its brush with the authorities.

kurusu · 12-10-2016, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

If ugly import marks are a turn-off, don't even consider a war trophy that the Brits got ahold of. Stamps everywhere. That must me how they reduced unemployment...
dju

Not to mention their own gear as it's decomissioned.

Got a 1934 Enfield N2 MK I that has Birmingham proof marks all over. Including one over every chamber of the cylinder.

At least I know it wasn't stolen from the military.

12-08-2016, 08:10 PM	#1
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 428 Thanks: 448 Thanked 220 Times in 99 Posts	Import Marks I was looking at an Imperial luger that looks very nice, but it has a Joe Salter Down East Antiques import mark under the barrel. How much, if any, does this decrease the value? There is no Made in Germany mark. Just the more recent Salter mark.

12-08-2016, 08:36 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	A very visible "billboard" style import mark would break the deal for me on a collectible pistol. I would treat it as a "shooter" price wise. A very discrete import mark might not affect my interest as much. Perhaps like those being done in very small type in the magazine well... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-08-2016, 09:38 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	If it is a "common" piece- look for another- well, unless it is a real bargain. If a rare or key piece, I can and will overlook an import marking. JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-08-2016, 11:52 PM	#5
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 790 Thanks: 394 Thanked 631 Times in 334 Posts	Import marks are an unfortunate government regulatory requirement and a regretable necessity for many weapons. I have a very small import mark on one of my non Luger pistols. The particular pistol is a beautiful work of art. But, the import mark is a mood killing distraction....like being distracted by a giant pimple on the face of a scantily clad Scarlett Johansson. My personal opinion is that an important marks reduces the value anywhere from 15-40% and is dependent on the mood of the buyer and the rarity of the gun. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

12-09-2016, 09:14 PM	#7
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 771 Thanked 554 Times in 198 Posts	Unless it's it's an incredibly rare specimen, a modern import mark immediately puts it into the "shooter" category for me and reduces the value/price significantly. __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."

12-08-2016, 08:49 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	any import marking turns me off - that said, in reality it shouldn't, its just part of the guns history, but any marking (import) will drive the price way down. I wonder if it will matter less as a new generation grows up on all the tokeravs, Maks, Mosins etc that have all been import marked...

12-09-2016, 09:44 PM	#8
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 428 Thanks: 448 Thanked 220 Times in 99 Posts	Well, I was afraid of that. It is a shame because it looks good with a nice imperial holster, rare marker on imperial tool, and two decent early imperial mags. Story is that it was captured by Canadian soldier. Then later imported in the recent past by Salter.

12-09-2016, 10:01 PM	#10
Sammler User Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 31 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Location,location! Import markings Hello, Location, location! Sounds like a real estate sales line, but it has a lot to do with an imported gun`s value. Years ago, I had nice Lugers imported from Germany by Simpson Ltd. I talked to them about the markings and location (now, this was 17 years ago). They worked with me and the Simpson Ltd. marking was electro pencilled in the magazine well--invisible from any outside viewing. This kept the gun`s high value. I think there was a change in that rule from the AFTE in subsequent years with the import marks to be placed outside of the gun and stamped as well. Now, the value is lowered considerably. If I am wrong, I surely would like to hear from someone who knows more about this than I.

12-09-2016, 10:36 PM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,033 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	Sammler, I agree that the desirability of a marking being more hidden is greater, but I would not think the value would be as high? I agree with you that a larger billboard turns me off. What I have noticed is that markings were smaller, got huge for a while, and now seem to depend on who puts them on. I know there are sizes of numbers/letters required, yet it sure seems that like I said, depends on who puts them there...

12-10-2016, 09:14 AM	#12
Pistol User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: TN Posts: 428 Thanks: 448 Thanked 220 Times in 99 Posts	Sammler - I saw photos of some of the Simpson's smaller more inconspicuous markings inside the magwell. Those were tastefully done. And I did read the laws changed to where the markings had to be more visible. The way Simpson's did it was nice. You could barely see them and only if you were looking for it. Ed- are you saying that even hidden, inconspicuous marks still reduce the value? This luger in question has the larger Salter markings on the underside of the barrel. Other than that it is a very nice luger. It has the Böhler Steel barrels marking also. Good halos on serial #. One mag appears to be one of the less common early imperial blued mags. It has no serial #, but a crown (Erfurt proof/mark?) on the lower portion of the wood bottom. I read on this forum that some think these blued wood bottom mags are Dutch, others are of the opinion that they are early imperial mags. I guess one could argue the import mark is part of its history, as being captured by a Canadian Vet, then imported into US at a later date. Unfortunately, I did not realize a manufacturer import mark would regulate it to a "shooter" category.

12-10-2016, 10:53 AM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	"Unfortunately, I did not realize a manufacturer import mark would regulate it to a "shooter" category." That is one guy's opinion; like all things "luger" - it depends! JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-10-2016, 03:05 PM	#16
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Again, it is still just "opinion"; there are import marks and then there are ugly import marks- each person must decide for their self if such is a deal killer or deserving of a significant price reduction. Some pieces are so rare or desireable that an import marking, while not desireable, is a fact of life. For example a 1914 DWM Artillery or a GL prototype or presentation piece does not become a shooter just because it has an import marking- JMHO. Common "Nazi" Mauser lugers may become shooters to some if import marked. Others can have their own opinion, but it does not make it so. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

12-10-2016, 03:11 PM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	If ugly import marks are a turn-off, don't even consider a war trophy that the Brits got ahold of. Stamps everywhere. That must me how they reduced unemployment... dju

12-10-2016, 03:15 PM	#18
ChannelIsles User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Jersey Channel Islands Posts: 156 Thanks: 8 Thanked 33 Times in 16 Posts	BNP British Marking When my S code was 'found' in the UK a few years ago, in order to export it, it needed to be proof fired & stamped. Whilst the norm would be various stamping as below: It thankfully found a considerate section 5 dealer who arranged for the single BNP Birmingham proof stamp placed under the grip. In these unavoidable circumstances, the alternative being deactivated, I think it came off rather well with its brush with the authorities.