Luger's Unsafe to Shoot?

[Josafoot]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Sorry. Wrong!

Allow me to rephrase.


The actual incident that occurred with Donald Hoobler was not with a Luger.

In the show, it was most certainly a Luger. (See picture above and show).

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

OK, I'll bite too. It is true that a luger with a round chambered can be fired by pushing in the sear bar. No matter if the manual safety is on or not. The upper receiver, called a cannon, will fire a round even when dismounted from the lower frame. In the movie, it was a captured luger.

If the pistol is Assembled-you cannot push in on the sear bar and make it fire! Just try it!

Do you have a luger? can you fire it with the safety on by pushing anywhere on it? Just try!

You can fire most any pistol if it is dis-assembled, use a pointy hammer on the primer; heck, one can even fire a round in a pipe that way, let alone a barrel. Stupid is as stupid does.

Repeating this garbage info is kind of like "fake news".

You are not supposed to take a pistol apart with a round in the chamber, duh!

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by mrerick

So, as a very early (and the first militarily successful) semi-automatic pistol design, the Luger is certainly not as advanced as some later designs.

Since there is no firing pin block system, it would be possible to dislodge the sear bar from the firing pin striker if the Luger is dropped on a hard surface at the appropriate angle as long as the safety is disengaged.

For this reason, I would not select a Luger as a concealed carry firearm today. There are better designs. The Luger is not a defective design by any means. It was the result of quite a bit of refinement at the time is was engineered.

A hundred years of new ideas by thousands of experienced designers have been commercialized since the Luger was made.

What other product has stood up as well in this time period? How many 1900 vintage adding machines do you still see in use? Many Stanley Steemers on the road? You get the picture...

I will preface my comments by addressing them only to a pistol in good condition and in proper fitment- faulty or worn out parts excluded that can cause most anything to "go wrong".

I would sure like to know what angle and what altitude it would take to jar a luger sear bar enough to disengage the striker!

I am not buying this as "possible", unless you have more info or can demonstrate such an occurrence or cite some documentation that it has ever occurred.

The combined spring tension of the trigger against the trigger lever and the sear spring tension on the sear bar itself would preclude any movement of the sear bar from an impact short of "bullet strike" energy.

Even the forward pressure on the sear engagement boss of the sear bar from the striker itself forces the sear bar forward into its angled engagement, further limiting any movement!

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Josafoot

Allow me to rephrase.


The actual incident that occurred with Donald Hoobler was not with a Luger.

In the show, it was most certainly a Luger. (See picture above and show).

Ah! That was not clear before.

But, the FN 1900 also has a thumb safety.

There aren't many unsafe pistols. But lots of unsafe operators.

[Tony Sandrin]

Originally Posted by Josafoot

Allow me to rephrase.


The actual incident that occurred with Donald Hoobler was not with a Luger.

In the show, it was most certainly a Luger. (See picture above and show).

Hoobler acquired the FN 1900 from a German POW during Operation Market Garden and carried it around with him. The real Hoobler never even had a Luger.

Apparently there is also some speculation that it could have actually been his 1911 that accidentally went off and hit him in the leg.

[4 Scale]

Per p. 198 in my copy of "Band of Brothers":

"Hoobler was in a state of exhilaration after shooting a man on horseback. He moved from one position to another, hands in his pockets, batting the breeze with anyone who would talk. In his right-hand pocket he had a Luger he had picked up on the battlefield. A shot rang out. He had accidentally fired the Luger".

That's what Ambrose said but if there is different or better information on the incident that would be interesting to know.

[Chichaco98]

Here's a video of a guy subjecting a Luger to a mud test. It doesn't seem very finicky at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_IeAaR5AmU

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Chichaco98

Here's a video of a guy subjecting a Luger to a mud test. It doesn't seem very finicky at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_IeAaR5AmU

Maybe because... it isn't.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by 4 Scale

Per p. 198 in my copy of "Band of Brothers":

"Hoobler was in a state of exhilaration after shooting a man on horseback. He moved from one position to another, hands in his pockets, batting the breeze with anyone who would talk. In his right-hand pocket he had a Luger he had picked up on the battlefield. A shot rang out. He had accidentally fired the Luger".

That's what Ambrose said but if there is different or better information on the incident that would be interesting to know.

Wikipedia sez it was an FN 1900. But they also say the FN has no safety. And it does.



Even those who were there were not not very sure, their testimony vary.

The only sure thing is that he unfortunately managed to shot himself dead.

[bigbuck]

Dear all,

If you look close to the BoB picture mentioned above you can see the loaded chamber indicator is visible and it reads on the side GELADEN.

Sorry that this brother could not read German so much..

Attached another nice sketch.

bigbuck

[ithacaartist]

The pic shows a M1900 style toggle and safety with a New Model frame and breech block with its "chamber loaded indicator" extractor.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

OK, I'll bite too. It is true that a luger with a round chambered can be fired by pushing in the sear bar. No matter if the manual safety is on or not. The upper receiver, called a cannon, will fire a round even when dismounted from the lower frame. In the movie, it was a captured luger.

Tom,

With a fully assembled Luger, this is impossible!!

Are we children to believe Hollywood crap?

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Josafoot

Some experienced shooters, whose opinions I deeply value, told me that the Luger is an unsafe firearm. Here were their reasons:

1. The system is senstive (finicky was their choice word) and is prone to misfires and jamming.
2. The pistol is 60-110 years old and may not be mechanically sound.
3. There is no identification as to whether the firearm has a round chambered and ready to fire.
4. The firearm is prone to going off when holstered. Citing Band of Brothers (This is the one I REALLY want an answer to).

I am not sure how accurate these opinions are but I am willing to examine them. I am new to the luger game and was hoping for some insight from more experienced members here.

My thoughts on their points are as follows:
Finicky System: This seems to be a point of contention. While British Commonwealth report the pistol to be sensitive to dirt and failing under stress, I have yet to find any German reports of such issues. I imagine that the various springs for working the toggle arm, magazine and action need to be calibrated to maintain a certain degree of timing.

[B]Old Firearm [\B]: There is not a whole lot to argue there. Yes it is an older firearm and may have been compromised due to time; however, this seems like something each pistol needs to be examined rather than branding the entire design as unsafe.

[B]Round Chambered[\B]: This also seems like something that the basic firearm principle of "treat as loaded" really helps with. I also don't understand how this is different than most other modern pistols. With the 1911, the hammer has to be back for it to fire. Modern pistols like Glocks seem to be plagued with the same issue as mentioned above.

[B] Unsafe to holster[\B]: This one really baffles me because I can't seem to find a straight answer on this. There seems to be the idea that a luger is prone to being "triggered" while holstered. The idea is that the luger has an external sear bar and is prone to being pushed while in a holster. They sight an episode of Band of Brothers as an example of this. I am fairly certain that the incident inf Band of Brothers was not with a luger; rahter, it was with a FN 1900.

Thanks for any help on this

Hi,

Experts?!?

Sieger

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

I am one of the members on these Forums who have shot--literally--thousands of rounds through my Lugers without "misfires or jamming". The pistol as designed, in new condition and using ammunition it was designed for, is as reliable as any other high-quality modern auto-loader--more reliable than its contemporaries--and much more reliable than some cheaply made, cheaply priced pistols you can buy.

Modern ammunition is no longer manufactured to DWM's 9x19mm specifications. The SAAMI specification for the 9x19 maximum overall length is the same as DWM's original specification for minimum OAL. Much of the currently available ammunition is simply too short to chamber properly.

The ammunition for which the Parabellum was designed used slower-burning powder than is in common use today. Modern powder burns too fast to properly match the pistol's timing.

Original folded-steel magazine feed lips have become worn or weakened in use over time and will no longer feed adequately. Newly-made (or original mandrel-formed) magazines do not exhibit this problem.

The Luger is sensitive to proper shooting technique: it must be held firmly when shot. "Limp-wristing" transfers energy which the pistol requires to operate, into the shooter's wrist. Just like many other auto-loaders.

Regarding the dust and dirt issue, in the U.S. Army's 1907 tests the Luger was one of only two pistols found to be reliable enough to compete with the Colt in that regard. 'Nuff said.




Some parts in any given example may no longer be metallurgically sound.

Dwight

Dwight,

Proper medium burning powders are readily available: Power Pistol, 3N37, HS6.

Agreed that currently loaded commercial ammo is all to short for proper function.

I don't agree on the Limp wristing issue though.

Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Why are we going through this old post again?
Nothing to do I guess?

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Why are we going through this old post again?
Nothing to do I guess?

Don,

What old post?

Silly post would be more like it.

Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Don,

What old post?

Silly post would be more like it.

Sieger

I agree, but it did start back in June!