Can 03FFL receive a handgun via USPS?

[adowns]

I am contemplating buying a luger. The seller wants to send it by USPS registered mail. He says he has done this several times already without incident. I have a C&R 03 FFL, NOT the big boy 01 FFL.

Is it legal? I thought UPS or FEDEX were required.

If it is legal, do local post office carriers and workers flip out?

If it is legal, do firearms "get lost" in the mail system?

Would appreciate info from any of you who have experience in this area.

Thanks, Alan

[Navy]

This topic is subject to endless debate due to the imprecision of the post office regs. The regs address only dealers, not licensed individuals. I have had chats with several USPS management types, including a guy in the inspector's branch and the consensus was that unless there is another issue, USPS Registered mail from anyone to a Type 03 is within the "intent" of the regs.

I have never lost anything sent registered mail, including a small envelope containing $35K cash sent from Europe via registered mail.

Tom A

Tom A

[lugerholsterrepair]

If it is legal, do local post office carriers and workers flip out?

Why would they unless you discuss with them what is in your pkg?

Jerry Burney

[BogeyB]

I have received just about all my C & R guns by USPS. The last time she asked what " heavy stuff " I was getting. I told her " machine tool parts ".

Mike

[Edward Tinker]

As Tom said, the regs are imprecise. In fact in one section it says "only dealers" can receive via mail; then in another section it states ALL FFL license holders may use USPS.



ed

[Tomathvl]

From FAQ's on ATF site http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f13

F14) Who may ship handguns through the U.S. Postal Service? [Back]

Federal firearm licensees may send an unloaded handgun in the mail to another FFL in customary trade shipments. Handguns also may be mailed to any officer, employee, agent, or watchman who is eligible under 18 U.S.C. 1715 to receive pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person for use in connection with his or her official duties.

However, postal service regulations must be followed. Any person proposing to mail a handgun must file with the postmaster, at the time of mailing, an affidavit signed by the addressee stating that the addressee is qualified to receive the firearm, and the affidavit must bear a certificate stating that the firearm is for the official use of the addressee. See the current Postal Manual for details.

The Postal Service recommends that all firearms be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. (See also Questions B7 and B8.)

More on the subject that states collectors CAN'T use the USPS.

http://proofhouseinc.com/PostalRegulations.htm

[Ron Smith]

I just composed a letter to the Inspector General U.S. Postal Inspection Service. It will most likely fall on deaf ears, but it's worth a shot. If we all start making the same appeal, it could change things.

Make reference to:

DMM 11.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Firearms


Ron


INSPECTOR GENERAL
POSTAL INSPECTION SERVICE
1735 N. Lynn Street, Arlington, VA 22209-2020


RE: Shipping firearms.

"DMM 11.1 Pistols, Revolvers, and Other Concealable Fiearms."


Hello,

I am a retired Postal Employee. I worked for USPS for nearly 32 years. In that time I was a T-6 Window Clerk / Trainer (20 years) and Finance Tech (7 years) at the Springfield Main Office.

I am presently retired and a collector of â??Curio and Relicsâ?� firearms. I am writing this in regard to the present DMM regulation pertaining to the shipment and receipt of firearms by â??licensed dealersâ?�. The current policy is that any and all handguns can be shipped only from a Licensed Dealer (01 FFL) to a Licensed Dealer with (01 FFL).

I have a valid Curio & Relics license (03 FFL) which permits me (by Federal Law) as a collector, to ship and receive firearms classified as Curios & Relics by BATF. The dilemma being that I, as well as numerous others, would much prefer to ship through USPS rather than FedEx or UPS. Neither of which are trust worthy in my opinion.

I am making an appeal to have the regulation changed, to include, and allow, the shipment of C&R handguns by C&R FFL 03 license holders. We are licensed by the BATF to do so. All that needs to be done is to have the â??Licensed Dealerâ?� changed, or to include â??(Federally) Licensed Dealers and/or Collectorsâ?�.

This would also enhance revenue on the average of $30 to $40+ per item, sent by (specified) Express, Priority or Registered mail with Insurance (only).

This regulation has never made sense, and is contradictory in regards the USPS and BATF regulations.

Please give this request serious consideration on behalf of myself and fellow C&R collectors.

Sincerely,

Ron Smith

Or send similar e-mail to:

[email protected]

[John Sabato]

Great job on the letter Ron... I knew you would chime in on this topic when you saw it... Please let us know when you get a response.

[Ron Smith]

Hi John,

Thanks, Bureaucrats are all the same. They don't like public pressure or attention brought to them.

Postal Inspectors will follow the regulations to a T, if they can come up with a clear translation. My experience in discussing firearms regulations with Postal Inspectors, is that they are kind of vague on how to translate the firearms shipping rule. Since it is somewhat contradictory vs. BATF regs. and a C&R is, a Federal License to ship and receive firearms.

One word of caution, NEVER use the term "GUN" or "WEAPON". Always use the term Firearm(s) when dealing with these people. They are Law Enforcement Officers to the bone, and "GUN" doesn't translate well with them.

Ron

[Ron Smith]

"At least I got a reply and have re-submitted the letter to "Consumer Affairs".



"Thank you for contacting the United States Postal Service Office of Inspector General Hotline. The Office of Inspector General (OIG) conducts independent audits and investigations related to systemic issues or concerns of fraud, waste, and misconduct affecting Postal Service programs. In reviewing your issues, we determined that the Consumer Affairs Office would be able to better service your concerns. Please forward your concerns and information to the Consumer Affairs Office at:

UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE
CONSUMER ADVOCATE OFFICE
475 Lâ??Enfant Plaza, SW
Washington, D.C. 20260
(202) 268-3063 or (800) ASK-USPS"

[John Sabato]

An answer in about a week! Amazing... let's see how long it takes Consumer Affairs to answer try #2.

[Ron Smith]

Here's an example of what we're dealing with. The e-mail reply that I received yesterday from USPS Consumer Services.

"Dear RON SMITH,

Thank you for contacting us about having the regulation changed when shipping firearms.

I apologize that we via the internet or email are unable to assist you. You will need to contact your local Mailing Requirements Office for specific information. Based on your ZIP Code of, 97478, the Springfield DCU customers can call (800) 285-1995.

For further information, you will also need to contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF).

If I can be of assistance to you in the future, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Thank you for choosing the United States Postal Service�®.

Regards,

Gary"


They don't have a clue what I was trying to say in my letter, so I got a "menu" based BS answer from a guy who is probably a private contractor (not a USPS employee) and is totally oblivious to what the DMM is, let alone how it is worded or what it means.

The DCU that he is referring to is the "Detached Carrier Unit" about 10 blocks from my house. It is nothing but a garage sized modular building that letter carriers for the 97478 zip code work out of. It's not even accessable to the public except for parcel pick-up for 2 hours a day. The 1-800 number is a central computerized "push 1 if you don't need anything" information number for the entire western district. They wouldn't even connect me with the DCU if I wanted to talk to someone there.

What's really funny is that, I'm the guy that the Carrier Supervisor at the DCU would call to get a clarification or a translation of the regulations.

Ron

[alvin]

That's the standard way.... USPS says "I don't know, ask ATF"..... ATF says "That's USPS regulation".....

[Ron Smith]

In regard to shipping USPS
We're in the clear...

Copied from the Domestic Mail Manual(DMM)...

DMM Section 601 "Mailability"

Article: 11.2 Antique Firearms
Antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces may be accepted for mailing without regard to 11.1.3 through 11.1.6.


It is legal to ship C&R through USPS

Some additional information:

It does not have to go overnight, although Express (overnight) is somewhat safer. I ship Priority mail with Insurance and Delivery Confirmation. Never use Parcel Post (ground).

You are not required to tell them that it is a firearm (never use the terms gun or weapon). All that they should ask is: "Is the contents Harmful, Flammable, Fragile, Liquid or Perishable?" That's all that they are required to ask. And that's all they need to know.

They do not have the right to see the contents. And cannot legally open Priority or First Class mail for inspection, except at designated facilities. They can open and inspect Parcel Post (ground) or Media mail (books, cds, etc.) on site.

If they should ask, simply sight the Domestic Mail Manual Section 601 article 11.2 It is a "Curio" and as long as you have a C&R you can legally mail it through USPS.

You are not required to fill out a form 1508 (Dealer shipping form), although it's no big deal if they ask you to. And it wouldn't hurt to take a copy of your C&R, just in-case.

Ron

[Don M]

Way to go Ron! Somehow you cut thru the crap.

[adowns]

Thanks to all who replied to my initial posting and especially to Ron Smith.

Alan

[BogeyB]

Ron,

The regs cite antique aems, what about "modern C & R guns?

Mike

P.S My Postmaster just wanted to keep my C & R onfile!

[Edward Tinker]

it says antique, but then states curios, another glitch in their regs I believe.

Same in the ATF regs, it states in one place "dealers may ship".... yet states in several other places; FFL holders may ship.... all those parts dealing with USPS...


Ed

[beachbaker]

I am a c&r holder and am returning a luger I bought and wondered how do you figure the amount of insurance to get? Do you insure the exact amount or a rounded amount? Thanks, Curt

[Ron Smith]

Curt,

Either way is okay. The insurance fee is based on $100 increments.

Ron