magazine prototype P-08 mfg. 1901

[John Sabato]

I concur with Doug and Jerry. This is typical of early Mexican craftsmanship in gun magazines. I have typically thrown away magazines such as this when they were part of a trade or deal.

[HUGO REVELES]

not see the beauty
when something does not exist, at some point do you think
and that idea before producing it, it creates a prototype test trial
that prototype is subjected to severe tests:
immersed in acid deforms the original brands
gunpowder overload damages the part
the piece is old, the bolt is screw

[HUGO REVELES]

Springfield Armory Museum - Collection Record

1901 and 1907, the Borchardt-Luger pistol was tested several times by the U.S. Army in various models and calibers. It was first officially brought to the attention of the army by Captain William H. Beehler, USN, while he was action military attache in Berlin. On 11 September 1900, Beehler wrote to the Adjutant General describing some experiments he had witnessed 'with the Borchardt-Luger Automatic Pistol at the Factory Loewe & Co. in Charlottenburg.' He was convinced that the new pistol was 'far superior' to any other handgun he had seen. While much admired for its technical excellence and elegance, this pistol was not favorably received by the American officers who tested it in the field.
On March 8 1901, Hans Tauscher of DWM met with members of the U.S. Army Board of Ordnance and Fortification, and together they made arrangements for the testing of two 7.65mm Model 1900 Borchardt-Lugers. The tests were carried out Springfield Armory by three officers (Major John E. Geer, Jr., Captain Frank Baker, and Captain John T. Thompson). During the trial, a total of 2,000 rounds was fired, with a number of misfires taking place due to insufficient firing pin protrusion, spread magazine lips (which did not hold the cartridge very well), and some poorly made cartridges. Toward the end of the tests, the bolt hold-open device was worn to the extent that it could not hold the bolt to the rear when the last shot in the magazine had been fired. Although the pistol pased the dust test without any difficulty, the rust test stopped it dead.
In evaluating the Borchardt-Luger,the officers noted that 'the parts of this pistol are in themselves somewhatols as the officer may be familiar with. (d) The suitability of automatic pistols for the use of enlisted men...or would it be advisable to issue them for the use of officers and non-commissioned officers.'
On 16 April 1901, Colonel Frank H. Phipps, commanding officer at Springfield Armory, was authorized to negotiate with Tauscher to acquire 1,000 Borchardt-Luger pistols and a suitable quantity of ammunition. The price was fixed at $14.75 per pistol with shipping and $14.00 per 1,000 cartridges. The first 800 pistols with 200,000 rounds of ammunition left Hamburg on 18 September 1901, arriving in New York on 26 October, with the remaining 200 reaching the States three days later. Following inspection at Springfield Armory in December, the Borchardt-Lugers were distributed to the field in February and March 1902: 1 to Rock Island Arsenal as pattern for a holster (23 January 1902); 10 to the U.S. Military Academy, West Point, New York; 15 to the U.S. Musketry School, The Presidio, San Fransisco; 10 to Fort Hamilton, Brooklyn, New York; 40 the Cavalry Board, Fort Riley, Kansas; and 625 to cavalry units in the field. Over the next two years the Ordnance Department received many reports on the new European self-loader. "The military variation was intended for use by the U.S. Cavalry. 1,000 were purchased by the U.S. Military for testing. It was not adopted and these were sold as surplus.
...Note that all three models (the American, Commercial, and Swiss) will be found within 1 to approximately 21220 serial number range."



Reference:
Davis, Aaron. THE LUGER HANDBOOK. Krause Publications. Iola, Wi. 1997.
Ezell, Edward C. HANDGUNS OF THE WORLD. Stackpole Books. Harrisburg, Pa. 1981.
Kenyon, Charles. LUGERS AT RANDOM. Handgun Press. Glenview, Il. 1990.
UNITED STATES MARTIAL & COLLECTORS ARMS. Military Arms Research Service. San Jose, Ca. 1971.
Walter, John. THE LUGER STORY: THE STANDARD HISTORY OF THE WORLD'S MOST FAMOUS HANDGUN. Stackpole Books. Mechanicsburg, Pa. 2001.

[HUGO REVELES]

Durante el juicio, se disparó un total de 2.000 vueltas, con un número de fallos que tienen lugar debido a la insuficiente percutor protuberancia, se extendió labios del cargador (que no mantenga el cartucho muy bien), y algunos cartuchos mal hechos. Hacia el final de las pruebas, el dispositivo de retención perno abierto fue usado en la medida en que no podía sostener el tornillo en la parte trasera cuando el último disparo en la revista había sido despedido. Aunque la pistola pased la prueba del polvo, sin ninguna dificultad, la prueba de óxido detuvo muerto.

[HUGO REVELES]

sorry next

[HUGO REVELES]

During the trial, a total of 2,000 rounds was fired, with a number of misfires taking place due to insufficient firing pin protrusion, spread magazine lips (which did not hold the cartridge very well), and some poorly made cartridges. Toward the end of the tests, the bolt hold-open device was worn to the extent that it could not hold the bolt to the rear when the last shot in the magazine had been fired. Although the pistol pased the dust test without any difficulty, the rust test stopped it dead.
In evaluating the Borchardt-Luger,the officers noted that 'the parts of this pistol are in themselves somewhatols as the officer may be familiar with. (d) The suitability of automatic pistols for the use of enlisted men...or would it be

[HUGO REVELES]

this magazine was not made ​​in mexico

[Vlim]

Well, it was certainly not made in Germany either.

[alanint]

Please look at the extremely poor fit between the magazine base and magazine tube. Does anybody really believe this it the work of a self respecting Germán craftsman making a one-off prototype magazine in the year 1900?

[HUGO REVELES]

I'm really convinced
the mystery of the origins of the gun luger
will never be solved
if we hubicamos in time and space
1900 production is an issue
testing is an issue
can not be compared

[alvin]

How could a prototype magazine have "Germany" at the bottom.... only mass production magazines could have that. But if it was mass produced, it should not be in this quality. So it's not a prototype, not a normal product. I agree with home-made-replacement conclusion.

[Vlim]

I think that further discussion of this magazine is pointless. If Hugo wants to believe its special that is his choice, but unfortunately for him, it isn't.

[sheepherder]

I think for third world manufacturer (is Mexico 3rd world???) the quality is actually very good, considering they use mostly what would be late 1800's/early 1900's machinery common to USA in that period...

I have tried/made magazines/sheet metal receivers in far past and it is hard to do with only home shop materials & tools. Now I modify similar magazines rather than make from scratch.

Best way is for many friends with divergent talents and different tools/material to pool resources and copy existing parts. Always good idea to copy good existing part. (And not copy a copy).

Here is success story of small group of entrepreneurs who have risen to larger successful company in short time [pic below].

As to country of origin of this magazine...Spanish have history of copying all European designs, especially Basque region. Some are/were large companies; some small home workshops. Many different manufacturing techniques, diversity of quality.

I personally would have no qualms displaying the discussed magazine with my 1900 Luger, without assigning it any particular designation.

As has been said many times before, it is what it is. Enjoy it for itself. Especially if it works!