1908 crown N versus BUG

[siegersallee]

Hi All,

I recently saw a 1908 DWM that had BUG on the underside of the barrel and a crown B and crown U on the left hand.

I have read that the Crown B means the barrels were tested using a heavier load in accordance with the 1892 proof law and that the Crown U (Untersuchung) means it was inspected after assembly, and that the Crown G (Gozogen) means a rifled barrel.

Now, I have a 1908 that has a crown N on the barrel underside and on the left hand side. I have been told that the crown N means the pistol passed the pressure test.

Since both pistols are DWM 1908s, what would have caused one to be BUG tested and marked while the other is N tested and marked.

Thanks,
Richard

[Ron Wood]

What are the serial numbers? The BUG proofed gun may be early 1908 and the C/N a late 1908.

[siegersallee]

Hi Ron,

I asked the owner of the BUG gun, he thinks the pistol is either mid-to-late 1907 or very-early 1908 ( serial: 40132 ).

But, your question makes me wonder: were the BUG marks common on commercials prior to 1908? Why are some commercials ( prior to 1908 ) BUG tested and marked?

Richard

I will post the serial of my commercial when I get home tonight; but, if memory serves it was something like 555XX.

[Dwight Gruber]

The German proof law of 1891 specified that firearms having undergone overpressure proofing with black powder be stamped with a crown/B (Beschuss, proof fired), with crown/U (Untershuchung) being a final proofing indicator. Crown/G (Gezogen, rifled) was stamped on rifled barrels.

With the advent of smokeless powder, German state proof houses became aware that this system was inadequate for proofing firearms designed for the greater power of smokeless powder.

In 1911 the state proof houses in Suhl, Frankfurt/Oder, and Zella-Mehlis devised new specifications for smokeless powder proofing, and specified the crown/N stamp to certify this. This practice went into effect in 1912. NOTE that this was not a change to the German proof law, only a change in the way these proof houses operated. Also, the state proof house in Oberndorf was not involved in this change, and continued to follow the original 1891 marking practices. (The actual German proof law was not revised until 1939.)

So, a Parabellum pistol or a P08 stamped with c/BUG proofs was assembled and proofed before 1912, and a pistol with c/N proof was assembled and proofed after.

--Dwight

[siegersallee]

Hi Dwight,

Your post is certainly authoritative and I do not have the expertise to challenge any of it; but, I am having trouble reconciling your statement:

and a pistol with c/N proof was assembled and proofed after

1912.

with what the collector that I purchased my 1908 Commercial from told me about my pistol.

I know this gentleman well and have purchased other pre-1918 lugers from him.
He said that based upon the serial number, 55568, he believed the pistol was manufactured in 1908. This pistol has the crown/N stamp.

Can you elaborate more on this topic?

Best Regards,
Richard

[Dwight Gruber]

Richard,

"1908 Commercial" is a rather casual designation. The 1908 pattern Luger was accepted by the German army in December 1908, and therefore designated Pistole 1908 or P08. The commercial version, identical in every respect, is commonly designated P08 commercial by collectors.

Production of these pistols, military and commercial, likely did not start until calendar year 1909. The first P08 recorded in the Commercial Database is sn 39142.

The original P08 was designed without a stock lug. The army instituted the change in P08 production to include a stock lug in August, 1913. Stock lug P08s show up in commercial production with sn 70185. The two styles of P08 were intermixed in commercial production until sn 71156, after which there are no reports of this style pistol.

A detail change was made to the frame machining of the P08 frame interior in late 1914. sn 71156 is in the middle of the range of reports of this change, which reliably dates the serial number to this year.

So, the range of the original pattern P08 commercial dates from 1909, approximate sn 39000, to 1914, earlier than sn 71172. Your serial number 55568 is roughly in the middle of that range.

The first lazy c/N proof mark shows up approximately sn 49000, and is found intermixed with c/BUG proofs until approximately sn 53190. This range of pistols can be roughly dated thereby to 1912.

I hope this answers your questions.

--Dwight

[siegersallee]

Hi Dwight,

A most excellent post!

You addressed a number of "fuzzy" concepts prevalent in the collector community about 1908s and nomenclature.
All-in-all, you tackled the issue of serial numbers and date of manufacture nicely.

Is there a single reference that relates commercial serial numbers to dates of manufacture?
Given the Germanic obsession with record keeping, I am guessing there may have been; but, I am also thinking that the bombing campaigns of 1944-45 destroyed this documentation.

Again, excellent post.


Best Regards,
Richard

[Dwight Gruber]

Richard,

I wish there was documentary evidence for DWM commercial production. The only authoritative source would be DWM's own production records, which are unavailable. It has proved necessary to infer date information from external events and data collection for the Commercial database.

If you do a forum search on the Commercial database you will find posts which address this.

--Dwight