If only it could talk

[rpbcps]

How much information can you obtain from a handgun? This WWI Luger contains a wealth of information telling its own history.

This example was the 282nd Luger produced in 1916, indicated by the fact the serial number does not have a letter suffix and the date on the chamber.

The receiver tells us that it was manufactured in 1916, as a ‘Lange Pistole 08’, (Artillery Luger). As many forum members will know, the notch just in front of the '1920 stamp', (discussed later), is where the front sight would have been fitted to the original 200mm barrel. Under the treaty of Versailles Post WWI Germany, was banned from owning / using pistols with barrels longer than 100mm. Therefore, many Artillery Lugers were reworked and had their long barrels replaced.

The '1920 stamp' on the the chamber is a property stamp, rather than a date stamp. Following WW1, the Weimar German Government found itself with an armed populace, with many former soldiers bringing their weapons home with them.

In an attempt to resolve this issue, in 1919, the German government passed the ‘Regulations on Weapons Ownership’, which declared that “all firearms, as well as all kinds of firearms ammunition, are to be surrendered immediately.” Under the regulations, anyone found in possession of a firearm or ammunition was subject to five years’ imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 marks.

Incentives were introduced for individuals to surrender their weapons to the government. It was announced that 100 Marks would be paid for a small arm until October 10th, after that date the reward was to be reduced to 50 Marks.

In August 1920 the German authorities issued an order that cited the impending disarming of the people required that all weapons of the armed forces were to be marked with the ‘1920’ date, to prevent people stealing military supplies and selling them back to the government. Hence the origin of the 'double date' stamped lugers.

This pistol went onto to see service with the Weimar police forces. The marking, (S.L. Pol 3804), is from the state police of Saxony, (Sächsische Landespolizei), formed just after WWI. This marking has been struck-out in favour of one relating to the Leipzig Schutzpolizei. – (S.P.L.). The Landespolizei, (state police), were superseded by a national Ordnungspolizei in 1936, as part of a Nazi Party programme of centralization. The Schutzpolizei were the branch of the Ordnungspolizei responsible for policing large towns and cities.

During the 1920’s, the German police authorities looked to resolve a safety issue with their lugers, which are designed with the firing mechanism on the side and not behind or on top as most automatic pistols. The side plate could be removed while the weapon still had round in the chamber, subsequently, the removal of the side plate exposed the sear and by then pressing on the sear, the gun would accidently discharge a round. This resulted in the introduction of the sear safety, patented in July of 1929 by Ludwig Schiwy of Berlin, which was only installed on police issued Parabellums, during the period 1929-34. The small bar on the left side of the receiver that appears to rest on the side plate identifies the sear safety.

In 1932 Reichswehrministerium, (Reich Ministry of Defence), issued an order for all rear main axle connecting pins on lugers be serial numbered to the weapon. This luger had its connecting pin stamped with the last two digits of the serial number in accordance with this order, sometime between 1932 and 1937.

I apprecaite that most members will already be aware of this information, and most of it, is also found in the Luger FAQs section. However, I thought I'd add it to provide some information for any new members.

I have one question related to 282. In the luger FAQs section I notice it states "The Crown/RC stamp is found on 1911 to 1918 dated Erfurts". There is a Crown/RC stamp on the barrel of 282, so I presumed that was added when the barrel was changed. So I am also presuming the stamp indicates that the barrel was changed by Erfurt and not DWM?

Stay safe
Richard

[Major Tom]

Thank you for all the info a luger can tell us!

[Norme]

Hi Richard,
Thank you for your interesting post and your photos are as good as they get.
Norm

[rpbcps]

Originally Posted by Major Tom

Thank you for all the info a luger can tell us!

With England now being in 'lockdown', due to Covid 19 and I am still in recovery from my cancer treatment / surgery earlier this year, I have time on my hands

[Vlim]

Nice gun.

I have one of its buddies, an Erfurt that got similar treatment an revised S.P.L markings. Mine can be traced back to a former SS / Policeman who served until the end at the Tirol - Italian border region.

[rpbcps]

Vlim,
Excellent, I wish I could trace history of mine, as far back as yours.

Richard

[Doubs]

The C/RC stamp was applied by Revisions Commission inspectors to parts that were originally not within specifications but determined to be serviceable. The RC inspectors were separate from the normal acceptance inspectors and they took full responsibility should a rejected part that they accepted fail.

While far more C/RC stamps will be found on Erfurt Lugers, some will be found on DWM Lugers too so it was not confined only to Erfurt production.

[rpbcps]

Originally Posted by Doubs

The C/RC stamp was applied by Revisions Commission inspectors to parts that were originally not within specifications but determined to be serviceable. The RC inspectors were separate from the normal acceptance inspectors and they took full responsibility should a rejected part that they accepted fail.

While far more C/RC stamps will be found on Erfurt Lugers, some will be found on DWM Lugers too so it was not confined only to Erfurt production.

Walker,
I appreciate that confirmation, it covers another piece in the jigsaw of the markings on 282, which I will add to my notes.

Richard

[spangy]

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Richard,
Thank you for your interesting post and your photos are as good as they get.
Norm

They really are Norme... A very good presentation and a welcome addition to the database Richard .

Cancer be gone so our friend Richard may continue his journey with enjoyment and continue to inspire others.

Thank you Richard

[DonVoigt]

I don't believe your pistol started life as an L P08, Erfurt did not produce the long pistol except in 1914 with 1914 dates. The proof and inspection on the right chamber are from Erfurt.
Erfurt followed the directive to produce all receivers with the LP08 sight clearance cut from 1916,
DWM did not- the presence of the cut on a DWM receiver would indicate birth as an LP08.

I don't see the serial number on the left side of the chamber- but it just may not be in the pictures.

Erfurt did produce spares, this could be a spare Erfurt barrel, but I would expect to see an Erfurt style proof eagle on the barrel- are there other markings not in the pictures?

The British proofs may obscure some other markings, and the barrel itself is somewhat rough near the receiver flange. The Crown N proof on the right of the barrel in the second picture is also an anomaly.

Pictures of all markings will help add to the story, as would a picture of markings in the inside "well" of the frame where the takedown lever passes through. A picture of the milling in the rear of the frame area also will tell the story of DWM vs Erfurt.

More pictures !

[rpbcps]

Don,
Here is a photo of the serial number on the left side of the chamber. There is an eagle on the barrel, as well as the Crown/RC. You can just see it on the same photo.

I don't have a clearer photo of the barrel markings, I'll take a photo of it tomorrow.

Some other photos also added, including a photo of the markings on the inside "well" of the frame.

I'll be interested to hear what these reveal.

Richard

[Doubs]

Don is correct; I missed the Erfurt proofs. Erfurt produced the LP-08 only in 1914. In November, 1916, the military directed that all receivers would have the notch for the LP-08 rear sight BUT only Erfurt followed the directive. DWM only notched those receivers actually used in LP-08 production.

As Erfurt did not produce LP-08 Lugers after 1914, all Erfurt notched receivers from November, 1916 onward will have standard barrels. It's also possible that Erfurt, knowing of the coming directive, produced notched receivers earlier than November, 1916. (Some 1917 Erfurt receivers escaped being notched. I have one)

WRT the C/N stamp on the barrel, it's possible that the gun was sent to a civilian proof house when the barrel was replaced. Your new pictures show a C/RC and C/X on the left side of the barrel so it's very likely that it is an Erfurt barrel.

[rpbcps]

Perhaps I have been looking at this the wrong way, and "can't see the wood for the trees".

I'll dig out my own volumes of 'The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols' later today and do some more research myself.


Here are some more photos: