First luger and first post

Mikeinmi · 10-24-2020, 12:34 PM

My charming wife bought me this as a gift I took it apart for inspection and cleaning. It is all matching except the left grip panel. But why would someone in the past scrub the area at the date? Also I noted "bubba" ground off the stock attachment. I will not tell my wife she probably got ripped off. She has bought me some very nice guns in the past.
https://imgur.com/a/Hf7zspT
more images
https://imgur.com/a/ySGhVO8

Sergio Natali · 10-24-2020, 12:59 PM

Welcome to this LUGER forum from Italy.

From a single and partial photograph we cannot say much, however unfortunately we do not know who has owned the weapons we have now, nor how many have been their owners, so it's fairly normal that a nice gun might have been "used and abused" by one of them in the past.

spripple33 · 10-24-2020, 09:53 PM

Welcome to the forum.
I wish MY wife bought me gifts like this! I agree with Sergio that it is difficult to give much opinion on your Luger without more photos. Closeup pictures of all the exterior markings other than serial numbers on small parts would be very helpful.
That being said, perhaps this Luger was kept by a German citizen or ex-soldier immediately after WWI and they tried to grind off the date in an attempt to hide the original production date from the IMKK. Pure speculation by a rookie..
Definitely post more/better pics and ask questions. Read old threads. There is an amazing amount of knowledge available to you here.
-Jason

spangy · 10-30-2020, 11:50 AM

Welcome to the forums Mikeinmi

Your wife is awesome for gifting you this Artillery luger

If you get time we would love to see images of the barrel where it meets the action and as many of the serial #'s inside and out as you have time for. There are some highly knowledgeable members here that will be able to tell you much about this gun ... a free appraisal so to speak.

I have no idea why someone would butcher the chamber date but sripples thoughts make good sense. As for the left grip replacement it may have had the dreaded 'million dollar chip' and was replaced thinking it makes the gun more desirable.
An original numbered chipped grip trumps a non-numbered intact replacement grip however.
Again pure speculation as to whether it was safety chipped or not.

The gun is over 100 years old and been used in WW I at least and perhaps WW II ... I hope I look this good at that age.

Mikeinmi · 11-01-2020, 06:29 PM

More pics added to original post.
https://imgur.com/a/ySGhVO8

Edward Tinker · 11-01-2020, 07:35 PM

In the sixties it was felt that a stock lug on a artillery Luger was possible to be accused of having a short barrel rifle. So, many were ground off.
The 1916, I am unsure, if ground, it’d be gone.

Mikeinmi · 11-02-2020, 11:49 AM

I did not know about lugs being ground off because of the possibility of being a SBR. That is too bad.

Doubs · 11-02-2020, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeinmi

I did not know about lugs being ground off because of the possibility of being a SBR. That is too bad.

Actually, the grinding of stock lugs began when the 1934 National Firearms Act was passed and it was forbidden to attach a shoulder stock to a handgun. My father and I discussed this back in the mid 1950's.

People misunderstood the law and thought that the stock lug, even if they didn't own a stock, made the gun illegal. I once owned a commercial alphabet Luger with a ground the stock lug. It was simply ignorance on the part of the gun's previous owner.

When I was 16 and in high school, I wrote a letter to the BATF asking about the paperwork necessary to own a C-96 Mauser and the shoulder stock. My father and I already had the gun and I knew who had a stock. Two FBI agents showed up at my father's workplace and he explained that I had written the letter which they found hard to believe. They then drove to my school and I was called out of class to the Principal's office where a very nervous Principal and VP were waiting with the two agents. They explained that I was too young to file the paperwork and that was that. I still own the C-96 more than 60 years later.

spangy · 11-02-2020, 02:36 PM

Thanks for the added images Mikeinmi.

... Welcome to the Artillery club, I love em.

Here is my 1914 Erfurt LP08 Artillery

Nice Doubs ...a C-96 is on my shopping list.

schutzen-jager · 11-02-2020, 04:19 PM

for a long period after 1934 until middle 1980's the only legal way to own a P08 or C96 with a shoulder stock in this country was to grind stock lug off of Luger + to hard weld stock groove on Mauser -

Doubs · 11-02-2020, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

for a long period after 1934 until middle 1980's the only legal way to own a P08 or C96 with a shoulder stock in this country was to grind stock lug off of Luger + to hard weld stock groove on Mauser -

Please provide a reference for this as it's not true. Owning the gun and the stock at the same time was NOT illegal. Attaching the stock to the gun WAS illegal.

What you've said is no different than saying that owning a can of gasoline and a box of matches is illegal because it makes you an arsonist.

schutzen-jager · 11-02-2020, 06:31 PM

it is absolutely true - refer to atf p5300.11 section III 1981 release - + other older ATF published ordinances - + 1968 + 1972 information release -

Doubs · 11-02-2020, 09:02 PM

Thanks for the reference. I was mistaken. It wasn't until the 1990's that I actually owned the combination and by then they had been removed from the NFA list.

sdmark777 · 11-03-2020, 12:52 PM

The ATF bulletin discussion of not having possession of both the stock and handgun (attached or not) is based upon the legal issue called "constructive possession". For example if you posses a non NFA registered short barrel rifle and remove the barrel, you are still in violation of the law based upon constructive possession. You may have the rifle or the short barrel individually, but not both. If you intend to make a short barrel rifle by replacing the barrel with a short one, you must wait for the NFA paperwork to be approved before you obtain the short barrel. As for the gasoline and box of matches that would not be constructive possession, as together they do not create a controlled item. So constructive possession does apply to numerous combinations of handguns and stocks, unless they are specifically exempted. Hope this helps.

Mikeinmi · 11-03-2020, 01:21 PM

Besides the lugs being ground off what do I have. Since they were ground off does it have no collector value? Should I just send it off to Thor and have it turned into a nice shooter? Thanks
Mikeinmi

ithacaartist · 11-03-2020, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikeinmi

Besides the lugs being ground off what do I have. Since they were ground off does it have no collector value? Should I just send it off to Thor and have it turned into a nice shooter? Thanks
Mikeinmi

It will always be classified as a shooter due its drastic departure from the condition in which it left the factory. All shooters are not equal in value, however. Restoration costs usually eat up any potential increase in shooter value, so it's more of an emotional decision than a economic one, so the decision to fix it back up is subjective, to say the least.

My first Luger is also an artillery, otherwise all original and matching, with a very nice finish-- with its lug ground off. GT was able to supply me with the back half of a grip frame, from which I can section out the appropriate area and install it on the Arty frame after the damaged area is excised. It should take a bit of TIG or micro-welding, then restoring the surface, and finally a touch-up of the involved work area's finish afterwards. I've seen pics of some of Thor's jobs in which he blended only the damaged portions of the finish to match the rest, and very nicely...so it's certainly possible.

Here's a link to the description of a guy's enterprise in which he builds up the area sufficiently with weld and then mills out a replacement lug where it should be, at $475 a pop. https://www.lugerforums.com/threads/...oration.40729/ Reconciling the finish would be next, and a further expense, so you can see what I mean about its needing to be a labor of love.

Fla.Mallard · 11-03-2020, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

In the sixties it was felt that a stock lug on a artillery Luger was possible to be accused of having a short barrel rifle. So, many were ground off.
The 1916, I am unsure, if ground, it’d be gone.

I bought my first Luger in the early '70s and it was a mismatched 1917 Artillery. It consisted of an artillery for the top and ??? for the bottom. The lug was ground off (still is).

Vettom · 11-08-2020, 08:26 AM

FWIW I have a number of restoration and original Guns. If you like it considering the restoration costs you are restoring something no longer made back to as reasonably close as like new. Since profits are not a consideration restoring it would give you Avery nice shooting gift. IMHO. Once restoration is done should something happen a fire theft etc insurance company would be looking for a replacement of Equal condition. My artilleries are insured as Collectable. My thoughts are restoring the lug and make a very nice shooting piece. Thanks for reading.

10-24-2020, 12:34 PM	#1
Mikeinmi New User Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 4 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	First luger and first post My charming wife bought me this as a gift I took it apart for inspection and cleaning. It is all matching except the left grip panel. But why would someone in the past scrub the area at the date? Also I noted "bubba" ground off the stock attachment. I will not tell my wife she probably got ripped off. She has bought me some very nice guns in the past. https://imgur.com/a/Hf7zspT more images https://imgur.com/a/ySGhVO8 Last edited by Mikeinmi; 11-01-2020 at 04:23 PM.

10-24-2020, 12:59 PM	#2
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Welcome to this LUGER forum from Italy. From a single and partial photograph we cannot say much, however unfortunately we do not know who has owned the weapons we have now, nor how many have been their owners, so it's fairly normal that a nice gun might have been "used and abused" by one of them in the past. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

11-01-2020, 07:35 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,935 Thanks: 2,034 Thanked 4,533 Times in 2,093 Posts	In the sixties it was felt that a stock lug on a artillery Luger was possible to be accused of having a short barrel rifle. So, many were ground off. The 1916, I am unsure, if ground, it’d be gone. __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-02-2020, 06:31 PM	#12
schutzen-jager User Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: peoples republic of New Jersey Posts: 187 Thanks: 208 Thanked 187 Times in 86 Posts	it is absolutely true - refer to atf p5300.11 section III 1981 release - + other older ATF published ordinances - + 1968 + 1972 information release - Attached Thumbnails

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10-24-2020, 09:53 PM	#3
spripple33 User Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Gettysburg, PA Posts: 85 Thanks: 137 Thanked 167 Times in 54 Posts	Welcome to the forum. I wish MY wife bought me gifts like this! I agree with Sergio that it is difficult to give much opinion on your Luger without more photos. Closeup pictures of all the exterior markings other than serial numbers on small parts would be very helpful. That being said, perhaps this Luger was kept by a German citizen or ex-soldier immediately after WWI and they tried to grind off the date in an attempt to hide the original production date from the IMKK. Pure speculation by a rookie.. Definitely post more/better pics and ask questions. Read old threads. There is an amazing amount of knowledge available to you here. -Jason

10-30-2020, 11:50 AM	#4
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	Welcome to the forums Mikeinmi Your wife is awesome for gifting you this Artillery luger If you get time we would love to see images of the barrel where it meets the action and as many of the serial #'s inside and out as you have time for. There are some highly knowledgeable members here that will be able to tell you much about this gun ... a free appraisal so to speak. I have no idea why someone would butcher the chamber date but sripples thoughts make good sense. As for the left grip replacement it may have had the dreaded 'million dollar chip' and was replaced thinking it makes the gun more desirable. An original numbered chipped grip trumps a non-numbered intact replacement grip however. Again pure speculation as to whether it was safety chipped or not. The gun is over 100 years old and been used in WW I at least and perhaps WW II ... I hope I look this good at that age.

11-01-2020, 06:29 PM	#5
Mikeinmi New User Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 4 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	More pics added to original post. https://imgur.com/a/ySGhVO8

11-02-2020, 11:49 AM	#7
Mikeinmi New User Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 4 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I did not know about lugs being ground off because of the possibility of being a SBR. That is too bad.

11-02-2020, 02:36 PM	#9
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 617 Thanks: 3,065 Thanked 1,057 Times in 429 Posts	Thanks for the added images Mikeinmi. ... Welcome to the Artillery club, I love em. Here is my 1914 Erfurt LP08 Artillery Nice Doubs ...a C-96 is on my shopping list.

11-02-2020, 04:19 PM	#10
schutzen-jager User Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: peoples republic of New Jersey Posts: 187 Thanks: 208 Thanked 187 Times in 86 Posts	for a long period after 1934 until middle 1980's the only legal way to own a P08 or C96 with a shoulder stock in this country was to grind stock lug off of Luger + to hard weld stock groove on Mauser -

11-02-2020, 09:02 PM	#13
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,700 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,692 Times in 555 Posts	Thanks for the reference. I was mistaken. It wasn't until the 1990's that I actually owned the combination and by then they had been removed from the NFA list.

11-03-2020, 12:52 PM	#14
sdmark777 User Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 288 Thanks: 695 Thanked 672 Times in 174 Posts	The ATF bulletin discussion of not having possession of both the stock and handgun (attached or not) is based upon the legal issue called "constructive possession". For example if you posses a non NFA registered short barrel rifle and remove the barrel, you are still in violation of the law based upon constructive possession. You may have the rifle or the short barrel individually, but not both. If you intend to make a short barrel rifle by replacing the barrel with a short one, you must wait for the NFA paperwork to be approved before you obtain the short barrel. As for the gasoline and box of matches that would not be constructive possession, as together they do not create a controlled item. So constructive possession does apply to numerous combinations of handguns and stocks, unless they are specifically exempted. Hope this helps.

11-03-2020, 01:21 PM	#15
Mikeinmi New User Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 4 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Besides the lugs being ground off what do I have. Since they were ground off does it have no collector value? Should I just send it off to Thor and have it turned into a nice shooter? Thanks Mikeinmi

11-08-2020, 08:26 AM	#18
Vettom User Join Date: Jan 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	FWIW I have a number of restoration and original Guns. If you like it considering the restoration costs you are restoring something no longer made back to as reasonably close as like new. Since profits are not a consideration restoring it would give you Avery nice shooting gift. IMHO. Once restoration is done should something happen a fire theft etc insurance company would be looking for a replacement of Equal condition. My artilleries are insured as Collectable. My thoughts are restoring the lug and make a very nice shooting piece. Thanks for reading.