another 1913 Erfurt Police

[Joe in Colorado]

I've been looking for an Erfurt Police rework for my small collection.

I returned one 1913 pistol because the TD lever was wrong and I got some comments from the dealer I did not agree with.

Here is another one, the same year (1913) and it's a double date.

I attached a photo of the markings, not on the grip strap this time.

Could a member please kindly let me know if these are police markings and their meaning?

Thank you, Joe

[DonVoigt]

You show early markings for the Schupo of Hanover(perhaps even Sipo).
See History writ in Steel, p 139.

These are the early 1922 style markings, and are likely quite early since they are on the left side, rather than the "standard" front grip area.

If you will post a link to the sale, we might be able to tell you more.

Since you show a serious interest in police pistols(as do I) I suggest you first buy the books:
History Writ in Steel by Don Maus, and Police Lugers by Tinker and Gruber.

These books are full of information and will help you make better choices and understand the intricate history of these pistols, their users, and the Weimar era in general. JMHO

[Joe in Colorado]

Thank you Don, of course you are right about the books, below is a link to the pistol for sale.
https://simpsonltd.com/erfurt-luger-1920-1923/

[DonVoigt]

Thanks, I like it.
Looks pretty good and a price that is better than most at Simpson's!

If you leave it too long, it may come home to NC.
I like the unusual placement of the unit markings.

[Joe in Colorado]

Thank you again Don. I would like a prewar Erfurt police rework-this is nice but I just hesitate because the straw and blue finishes are thin. I'm sure the colors would perk up a little with a coat of oil but I have bought and returned several guns lately and am a bit gun shy. I will only have one of these and may wait for a nicer, more expensive one. If you want this one please go ahead. If you have a nicer one you would sell me please let me know. Joe.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Joe in Colorado

Thank you again Don. I would like a prewar Erfurt police rework-this is nice but I just hesitate because the straw and blue finishes are thin......Joe.

Joe, interesting gun.

I think you may be too picky - this is not a bad thing, although let me add a bit of caution, several collectors i have known over the years either wait too long (never getting the right gun) or more common, they find the perfect gun in perfect shape - and I personally have seen some very nice refinished (fake) guns called originals by dealers (Simpsons has an excellent reputation and published some of my books)


However, I have never seen these markings placed here - it would make me hesitate, but on the other hand, I can't imagine anyone faking it and putting them there.



Ed

[HerrKaiser]

I would agree with Ed about being a little picky. There were not that many Erfurts made pre-war. Fewer still survived both world wars, even fewer have stood the test of just 100 years of time with use/abuse/neglect. There can’t be that many which survived all this, were also accepted into a police configuration like this example, and still look that good too.

I totally understand wanting to have one in pristine condition for a collection. But 1 in hand is easily worth 2 in the bush. It’s not like it won’t resell if/when you find that perfect one. I’d go for it now if the price is right.

[Mac Cat]

The history and good condition of this gun is what makes it worthy of collecting and further research.

[DonVoigt]

If you read the table in Don's book, p 139; you will find that at least one other
Hn pistol is marked on the left side .

Side markings are not totally unusual, witness the early left side markings of the Land Gendarmerie of Alsace pistols and the right side marking of the Hesse pistols.

[Don M]

I wouldn't be concerned about the authenticity of the police property mark. I have two others from this unit in my database: unknown date/manuf. S.Hn. ][.6.26. and 1918 DWM S.Hn. ][.6.28. Both have the marking on the right frame, a large space between Hn. and ][. and use reversed brackets ][ for the Roman numeral II.

If I were still collecting, I would grab this. The markings of the Hannover Schupo are confusing but fascinating.

Joe, if you want a pristine Luger, I wouldn't look among police reworks. They generally got a good deal of use/abuse.

[DonVoigt]

The reason for the wide space between the markings is the presence of the safety bar; if "stamped" in this area it will/ would likely cause the safety bar to bind as it moves in its slot and against the back of the blank area. There is essentially no clearance between the bar and the thin side of the left area of the frame.

I just built a shooter this past week with a "ding" in that area, could not get the safety bar in place until the ding was ironed out and inside smoothed up.

[Norme]

Interesting observation, Don. It's possible that it's for this reason that the rare, and collectible, Reichs-Gendarmerie Lugers were hand engraved and not stamped.
Regards, Norm
https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...ch+Gendarmerie

[Joe in Colorado]

Thank you all again, so interesting. I will buy the pistol today.
I will post more photos once I get the pistol, if I see anything unusual inside or whatever.
Best Wishes, Joe

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Norme

Interesting observation, Don. It's possible that it's for this reason that the rare, and collectible, Reichs-Gendarmerie Lugers were hand engraved and not stamped.
Regards, Norm
https://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...ch+Gendarmerie

Hi Norm,
If not "the" reason, then just a happy coincidence.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Joe in Colorado

Thank you all again, so interesting. I will buy the pistol today.
I will post more photos once I get the pistol, if I see anything unusual inside or whatever.
Best Wishes, Joe

Joe,
I think that is a good move.
I almost bought it yesterday, I really like the markings, but have decided I can't have "all" the marked police lugers out there.

Police unit marked Erfurt lugers and scarcer by far than marked
DWM lugers.

Now the "non-buyer's regret" is setting in!

[HerrKaiser]

Sometimes I don’t know which is worse. Buyer’s remorse, or not jumping on an opportunity. Then again, I’ve had both hit me on a single purchase decision from the winter.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

The reason for the wide space between the markings is the presence of the safety bar; if "stamped" in this area it will/ would likely cause the safety bar to bind as it moves in its slot and against the back of the blank area. There is essentially no clearance between the bar and the thin side of the left area of the frame.

I just built a shooter this past week with a "ding" in that area, could not get the safety bar in place until the ding was ironed out and inside smoothed up.

Afraid I disagree. I have records of magazines marked with the space. I think these may have been provisional early Sipo marks that left room for later changes.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Don M

Afraid I disagree. I have records of magazines marked with the space. I think these may have been provisional early Sipo marks that left room for later changes.

Hi Don,
it could be a happy co-incidence,
but if they had stamped in the clear space it would have created the problem described.

Have you noted any with the space utilized later?

Perhaps that is why later essentially all markings moved to the grip frame?

[Don M]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Have you noted any with the space utilized later?

No. Could be that the provisional marks turned out to be adequate. Hannover is a very confusing district.

[Joe in Colorado]

It's over 2 years since this thread and I finally found another pistol with similar markings for sale at Legacy, link below.
The exact marking was mentioned above, here is a photo and link to the pistol for sale-unfortunately the stock lug was ground off. Cheers, Joe
https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/...ems/24258.html