Brazilian Lugers: collecting data

[Douglas Jr.]

List updated, now with 90 guns.

[sheepherder]

Douglas -

PM's to you are being refused - "Douglas Jr. has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her."

And emails to your address -

[email protected]

As shown on page one of this thread are being returned as undeliverable.

[Douglas Jr.]

This is strange, because my e-mail is still the same and active.
Anyway, you can send me a message to [email protected]
Thanks!

[Douglas Jr.]

Updated list of known survivors as of April 28th, 2019.
Including sn 4385, reported as stolen in Ohio.

[Mauser 712]

For many, many years Luger experts have believed that the Circle-B proof mark on the left-side receiver of the M1906 Brazilian Contract Lugers were to indicate a contract for Brazil besides the extractor marking being in Portuguese which is logical.

On a recent post about a fine and quite rare M1906 American Eagle Luger pistol (in caliber 9 mm Parabellum) having the same stamp under the barrel serial number, my dear stubborn friend Ron Wood (who still wants to believe the drunk 'Russian' Luger theory ) made the following comment to the proud American owner:

"The circled B marking was used as a receiver proof on the 1906 Brazilian contract Luger, and for some reason a DWM barrel inspector subsequently chose to use it as his acceptance mark (it is not a left-over barrel from the Brazilian contract as that would be a 4.75-inch barrel in .30 caliber)."

His comment made me think deeper for the correct reason which has even puzzled Luger experts for ages. Me being a Genius 😇 (which is my middle name initial), I now believe that I have discovered the actual reason for the use this stamp according to its placement on a Luger pistol, not to mean for a Brazilian contract Luger in caliber 7,65 mm Parabellum with a 4 3/4" slim barrel.

With reference to information that I had also researched regarding the M1908 Bulgarian Contract Luger (with a DWM logo being above the chamber and several of these pistols having a C-suffix serial number), I discovered that this arrangement was making reference to the DWM 9 mm Parabellum cartridge with the code DWM 480 C to help enlisted soldiers not to get confused with an earlier issued pistol in caliber 7,65 mm Parabellum at the time (around 1910-12) when several foreign nations were wanting to procure the more powerful 9 mm cartridge for their military.

After making some research and observations, I decided to apply the same logic to the Circle-B proof mark on the Brazilian Luger - and I discovered that the 7,65 mm Parabellum cartridge DWM 471 B happens to indicate 7,65 mm Swiss Parabellum (two piece case), which has the same design specifications as the Brazilian Luger pistol with a slim barrel.

I wish that this important information between pistols and cartridges will widen the knowledge and history by different collectors - being aware that the German DWM factory did everything for a reason - including with the safety markings on a 'Russian Luger', which is actually another Bulgarian contract Luger using the 480B cartridge - where the B stands for 'Bulgarian'. 🤪

Have fun,
Albert

[Ron Wood]

Albert posted this fantasy on Still's forum also. A tribute to his vivid imagination! But, having said that, it is good to hear from him once in a while. Stay healthy Albert.
Ron

[Norme]

Happy to see your back Albert (excuse the double entendre), things were kinda dull around here.
Best regards, Norm

[Heinz]

It is good to see Albert and Ron Wood in a discussion. I applaud Albert's genius but I would put my betting money on Ron Wood.

[Mauser 712]

Originally Posted by Heinz

It is good to see Albert and Ron Wood in a discussion. I applaud Albert's genius but I would put my betting money on Ron Wood.

Hey Heinz,

Don't discriminate on age or money!

My friend and old 'Goat' rival Ron - and several other old wealthy collectors - cannot admit for example that I am correct on the M1906 'Russian' Luger actually being another Bulgarian contract Luger.

The first comment I posted thinking that the Circle-B mark meant Bohler steel was an honest mistake, but the Genius in my German brain quickly discovered my mistake and lead me to a strong opinion that makes sense/logic between DWM cartridge codes and Luger pistols.

Germany 3 - USA 0

[Ron Wood]

Albert,
Don't know where you got the idea I am rich. I will admit to being a bit old. I worked for a living and spent more than 60 years acquiring my collection, roughly an average of one gun a year as I could afford it. I have been lucky in acquiring a few bargains and got some of the good stuff before the general populace realized they were scarce and expensive.
And your "genius brain" didn't discover your Böhler steel blunder, I pointed it out to you. You can however take credit for the rest of the nonsense you came up with regarding DWM cartridge codes.
Cheers
Ron

P,S, I need to apologize (as do some others). We have totally hijacked Douglas' thread on Brazilian Lugers with this senseless banter and I will not continue with it. Mea Culpa.

[Heinz]

Douglas, my apologies. I hope you are doing well.

[Mauser 712]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Albert,
Don't know where you got the idea I am rich. I will admit to being a bit old. I worked for a living and spent more than 60 years acquiring my collection, roughly an average of one gun a year as I could afford it. I have been lucky in acquiring a few bargains and got some of the good stuff before the general populace realized they were scarce and expensive.
And your "genius brain" didn't discover your Böhler steel blunder, I pointed it out to you. You can however take credit for the rest of the nonsense you came up with regarding DWM cartridge codes.
Cheers
Ron

P,S, I need to apologize (as do some others). We have totally hijacked Douglas' thread on Brazilian Lugers with this senseless banter and I will not continue with it. Mea Culpa.

Hi Ron,

I did not refer to you in the funny post as a rich collector, hearing how you acquired several quality items in your collection over many years of working and searching. I applaud your magnificent collection, reminding you to reserve a few of your special items for me when you decide to start selling - including the M1906 'Russian' Luger which I would join with my M1900/03 Bulgarian Luger display if that is okay with you despite our different theories. I always enjoy a good debate with respect, but sometimes you get sharp when your opinion does not follow logic or historical practices in Imperial Germany or for export.

I would like to hear your wisdom about the Circle-B marking if you think it is unrelated to the DWM cartridge caliber coding.

Cheers,
Albert

[Douglas Jr.]

Sorry my late answer on this topic, but I had to answer it on the other board.
So, I will just paste my answer to Albert's theory, as I wrote in Jan Still's forum.
______________________________________________________________________

Dear folks,
I am sorry for my delay to jump into this topic, but I have been busy with some new articles and the work at the museum.

After reading the messages, I must say that, with all the due respect to Albert, his theory does not hold up against some historical facts. Other military firearms contracts entered by Brazilian Armed Forces, shows that the "Circled-B proof" is not "related to a cartridge caliber" while other Foreign contract of very similar firearms does not bear the same marks.

First, we should remember that, at the very same time as Brazili was purchasing its Parabellums, Portugal was doing the same. And the Portuguese Army was not only buying the same number of guns (5000) but also in the same configuration: 7,65 mm Parabellum caliber, 4.75 in. bbl. and grip safety. However, even when chambered for the same caliber, the Portuguese guns have a completely different set of proofs (the "circled-Triangle").

It just makes no sense - from the point of viewn of a proofing system - to have this kind of "warning" concerning a "cartridge caliber" used in some guns while not using it in others, from the same time frame.

Now, let's take a look at the well known 1908 Brazilian Mauser Contract (chambered to 7 x 57). This contract is of special meaning as this purchased was made at the same time frame as the Brazilian Lugers and 3/4 of the total amount of the rifles were made at the DWM factory in Berlin. Every each of the 400,000 rifles of this sizable contract (fulfilled between 1908-1914) has the "circled-B" stamp (example below). Blueprints from the Mauser factory - from Jon Speed archives - present the "circled B" as the proof for the "Brazilianische Infanterie Gewehr 1908". It is worth mentioning that such mark has not been seen in any other foreign contract of identical guns (as the Mauser Model 1909 made for Argentina, chambered for the 7,65 x 53) or for the same cartridge (like the Mexican Mauser Model 1910, also chambered for the 7 x 57) just to mention two examples.

On the other hand, "circled-B" proof was also used on other Brazilian military firearms as Anthony Vanderlinden mentioned above.

Those facts clearly show that the "Circled-B" proof was intended to be used by DWM (and Mauser) factory inspectors to identify both rifles and pistols made for Brazilian Military, at least initially. The appearance of this marking in barrels (and barrels only) made at the same time is yet to be explained, although Ron and I have different opinions on this subject.

Greetings,
Douglas.

[Doubs]

FWIW, here is the receiver of an 1895 Chilean Mauser made by DWM that I used to own. The serial number is 519 and no suffix. It was an interesting rifle as the rifling and muzzle crown were distinctly different than other 1895 rifles I've owned.

[G41M]

How rare is the circle "B" barrel mark on a 1906 AE 9mm?

This Brazilian may be on the list already, S/N 3587, circle B on left side receiver, Carregada marked extractor, matching, condition is restored.

[Mike B]

i just acquired another Brazilian Luger. Proper extractor, circle proof, serial number 4874 all matched
Hope this helps
Mike.