Two new Swiss - Questions

[southriv]

Hi, I just aquired two Swiss Lugers, an 06 Cross in Sunburst and an 06/24 (variation1). The Cross in Sunburst may be a rework. I am not so sure on the 06/24. Both do not have the last 2-3 digits of the serial # on the takedown lever (at any location). I am also trying to find out a litle more about the additional proofing, beyond the most common proofs - the known inspectors proofs usually seen on the left side of the frame or the "p" denoting release to the public (I do not have the "p"). Both Lugers have additional Geneva cross markings which I do not see on the 06 Cross in Shield I got last year. Are these the markings indicating reworks of the O6 and 06/24 models & how can you tell if they are Bern or otherwise? I have the Bobba book, but many of his pistols , (including the one on the cover, the 06/24s on pages 127 &131) have this additional cross. Kenyon refers to the existance of the additional Geneva cross proofs, Reese says thay are signs of a rework & Datig makes no reference in his "monographIV".

These are both in excellent condition & have shiny bores. I figure the 1906/CSu is from 1907 and the 06/24 from 1923. There is very slight grip strap wear on the 06 Cross in Sunbust and some muzzle wear, light side plate wear and toggle slap marks on both. Neither have any bluing on the inside of the frame or magwell. The 06 Cross in Sunbust has the correct disc mag and the 06/24 has a mag numbered to the pistol.

I'm looking to learn a bit from the experts on these. I am learning that reworks can be more common than originals & as such, given the quality of Swiss arsenal work, are as prized as non-reworks. Given this, I am going into the two with the assumption these are keepers - they are very nice.....It was the Cross in Shield I bought last year that drove me to this!

Thanks, Bob

[southriv]

Here are the pics for the O6/24

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the photos of some very nice Swiss lugers. As you may know...it is difficult to tell from a few photos if a gun is original finish or not. The best thing is to travel with your guns to shows or other Swiss collector's homes to compare your lugers with other Swiss lugers.

Here are my impressions on your M1906 Swiss-DWM :

1. The polished area under the thumb safety is not as cleanly and well defined as DWM quality. Might be evidence of a rework.

2. The top of the pin through the toggle nobs is not "in the white". May indicate some rework.

3. It might just be the photo or lighting, but the photo showing the "6310" on the shoulder of the barrel has some odd blue coloration.

4. There is the green verdigris (typically picked up from holsters with corroding rivots) on parts of the wooden grips, the fluted area of the thumb safety lever, and along the left side toggle knob. You might want to clean off the verdigris.

5. The fire-blue color of the sear seems to be a little off in color.

6. The small cross on the left side of the barrel would typically have some "bits of white" when stamped on a blued barrel. Yours is blued and may indicate a rework.

7. If your pistol is a rework, it seems like an old one; as it shows evidence of some wear, oxidation, patina.

Here are my impressions of your M1906 W+F Bern :

1. The bottom edges of some of the serial numbers along the front of the frame seem to have lost some depth/definition; possibly lost with rework.

2. The pin on the top of the toggle knob is driven down too deeply. Not sure if the Bern arsenal would leave it as such on a military pistol.

3. The word "Bern" along the top of the toggle seems to have lost some depth/definition; especially compared to the other stampings.

4. The rear lanyard "staple" has a deep gouge or two that seems to be blued-over. This might indicate a rework as well.

5. It might be your photos/lighting effects...but this pistol seems a little too "blue" to be a Bern finish.

6. The magazine is Bern and numbered correctly in the correct orientation.

7. The right side of your frame/receiver have some "extra" small crosses. I have been told by a couple of Swiss collectors that these are the marks of rework cycles through a Swiss arsenal. But I have no documentation to support this "theory".

8. There are some coarse sanding/grit lines along the finish of various areas that seem to indicate rework with no follow-up of sanding/polishing with finer grit afterwards. This might indicate a rework as well...possibly not Bern rework.

For example, around the take-down lever and even on the take-down lever :



Regards,

Pete...

[southriv]

Pete,

Thanks for taking the time to do a detailed analysis of the photos. Agreed - photos are hard to make definative judgments from. I've since talked to a couple other Swiss collectors on the phone. They feel, like I do, they are both Swiss reworks, though it is hard to tell from exactly where. There seems to have been too much inconsistancy in the process & lack of records to indicate with any certainty the origin of a rework. There seems to be agreement that the additional crosses are the best indication of a rework. Your observations of the nature of the stamps are also strong evidence.

I'll add a couple interesting observations/thoughts about the 06/24. With one exception, the finish (blue) is identical to that on my other two O6s - one a rework and the other original. However, the slide, particularly the top over the chamber and then back, has a slightly different patina. Now, the inspector's cross over M on the left on this part is (based on my opinion/observation) the only original stamp as it still has the metal raised around the edges -perhaps the slide was not refinished? Anyway, from my talks with others, it seems that most anything is possible. It was also told that reworks are the rule, and originals are the exception. If one uses the multiple cross stampings as one crieria, then most of the pistols shown in Bobba's book are reworks - further substantiating this theory.

Again, thanks for the input. If I get some time, I'll post pics of my 06 Cross in Shield - the contrast, based on the observations you've made, will be apparent. I do like the Swiss Lugers & can appreciate your keen interest and devotion to the study of this particular subset - the quality and care they have recieved over their lives seems to be the exception as opposed to the rule in not only the world of Lugers, but many other collector venues, also.

Bob

[panda]

Both do not have the last 2-3 digits of the serial # on the takedown lever (at any location).

As far as I know this part was originally numbered. However, as it is one of the weak parts, it was not unusual to have it had replaced.

The 06 Cross in Sunbust has the correct disc mag and the 06/24 has a mag numbered to the pistol.

As far as I know, only the first series (P1900 #1-1000?) had ordinance numbered mags. However, again, it is not unusual to find mags with the last two digits of the s/n on the bottom of the 06/24 mags (only wood). Why this mag numbering was only added to 06/24, I don't know.