1917 Erfurt

I don't think anyone is "defending" mis-matched sideplates here......there is no defense. It is either matched, or it is not. Just pointing out some of the common reasons as to why the sideplate may lose the pistol. And safety and kids was one of those reasons. Wish I had a dollar for every cheap Winchester and Remington bolt gun I've replaced the bolt in because Mom hid the original.

I don't consider replacing a part as necessarily tampering with it and this includes the magazine. I will not argue that the prevailing current doctrine in Luger collecting does in fact lean toward any mis-matching (other than mag) disqualifies a piece as a collecter grade Luger. I am challenging this way of thinking however as being improper esp. when taken to extremes. I beileve that it all started with Datig's book in the late 50's when Fred wrote of how to distinguish Lugers that were made up from piles of surplus parts (hardly the case with a Luger that has a MM firing pin or hold-open). Most true tampering that I have seen on Lugers involves modern parts re-numbering (to match) and messing around with the finish to make them 98+ % blue. It is a natural human tendency to look for any thing that can distinguish something or put it in a catagory, esp. true with collecters. It just seems very artificial to me and somewhat of a cop out to say that a mismatched mag is OK but a mismatched hold open means it is just a shooter. By the way all of my Lugers are matched except some with mm magazines.

Semantics re-visited: I think you will find that if someone, albeit not so knowledgeable, thinks removing the side plate will safe the pistol; it safes the pistol. So much for German policemen.

[tom]

Does anyone on this list remember the old HiHunter catalogue that was published in the 1950s? In the rear of the catalogue, (The best part to my young eyes) were photos of GIs and captured German POWS cleaning, sorting, packing and crating German rifles and pistols. If memory serves, there was one shot of a corporal with a stub of a cigar in his mouth and a pile: 30-40 disassembled lugers on a table. A pile of cannons, a pile of frames and a pile of side plates. Corporals being what they are, it doesn't seem much of a stretch to imagine that corporal not caring what side plate went with what P-08. Nor is it much of a stretch to imagine several hundreds of corporals doing similar things from 1945 thru the early 1950s.


I think this is a pretty good hypothesis on why so many P-08s are mismatched.


FWIW,


Tom

I still have that catalog Tom. The picture I always liked best showed a G.I. standing beside a large crate, with open top, that appears to be 5 feet square, and 4 feet high. The crate is FULL of Luger pistols just randomly tossed onto one another. In the background, you see several other crates; some with P.38's. The good 'ol days!

I do agree with this thinking. I understand and realize there has to be a point where you call a gun a collector and when you call it a shooter. But I was under the impression that NRA standards allow certain small parts to be replaced?


My 1940 has a complete upper assembly and frame of two guns, so somewhere, someone has my matching parts! So instead of a shooter, it'd be what a 80 - 85% Collector?


How do you judge the percentage? I mean, I know it is done by the eye and is very judgemental, but what constitutes mssing blueing?


Ed

And so it continues----The guys with the Bucks and all match mint Lugers will not conceed that the man of average means, who has a selecton of Lugers that are anything less, has collectible Lugers. My collecttion numbers more than 100 and in range both ways from 90%. Yes I have about 12 that are import marked such as 4 variations of the G date[ I have one 98% G in addition] One is a KU: with import marks and all match except side[trigger]plate. I am quite confident that is will bring more than $400-$500 and not even God can convince me that it is not collectible. Come on you people with less than %98 Lugers---stand up and defend yourselves. With the thousnds and thousands of less than mint Lugers out there---surely there are more of us than there are of them.

Tom, first Krauts, then Japs, and now corporals? Will this Forum ever stop bashing people? I was a corporal a very short time ago and wore the stripes with pride. (I'm serious about the pride, but ribbing you about bashing those dirty corporals) Take care, Sgt. Denny Cox, U.S. Army

[John Sabato]

I only own TWO lugers, neither would be considered collectible by the folks with the big bucks, but each of mine has it's own history and value or I wouldn't have purchased them.


BTW, Mine only cost me about $100 each in the 1970's and I would dare say they are worth a bit more than that now. You can see BOTH of mine in the owner's corner.


regards to all,


John

[Johnny Peppers]

Art,

I guess it has a lot to do with whomever appointed the person that gets to say what is collectible and what it not. This does not leave room for much subjectivity if this position was attained by royal ascension. If this is a self appointed position, then we can all chuckle and consider the source.

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks,


Once more - donâ??t confuse â??collectableâ?� with â??collector value.â?� Anything someone collects is â??collectable.â?� Collector value, OTOH, is determined by the market - and mismatched Lugers simply donâ??t have much in the way of collector value.


Art, I donâ??t doubt or dispute all your Lugers, regardless of condition and whether matching, are collectable. But if you should ever decide to sell one of the mismatched Lugers from your collection donâ??t be disappointed if all you realize from the sale is shooter value. Thatâ??s just the reality of the marketplace in Lugers. Unless, of course, you can find someone who doesnâ??t know the Luger market


Best regards,


Kyrie

Yes, John, you are without a doubt a genuine Luger collector. You are just not an ADVANCED collector.

[Hugh]

I'm with you Art. As far as I'm concerned any gun that hasn't been made in 55+ years is a collectable whether any numbers match or not.

[Dan Clemons]

Yes, having all numbers match is fine and may command the highest price. However, IMHO, condition, condition, and condition must play a part in any guns value. I see Lugers with all numbers matching with only a fair bore. IMHO, all Lugers will increase in value over time. Its just that the mint ones will always command higher prices is all. A diary of a previous owner can value too. So, numbers don't always have to match to have a great Luger. I have an all numbers match including magazine Artillery that is a shooter for me. The outside of the gun is pitted with inconsistant blue on each side of the gun. The gun was rarely shot but poorly stored. My first shot with the gun was dead center one inch high at 15 yards. My question now is do I preserve the gun by having it re-blued or let it rust and pit. What would you do?

[MikeP]

This must be about round 15 in this fight in the last two years-nothing wrong about differences in opinions but I hear a lot of useless generalizing here.


I am a working stiff-retiring soon-I can buy a decent luger once in a while--I will buy only a matched-except for magazine-pistol. I think that is first priority for most folks who are collectors of lugers. Originality is at the top of my hierarchy--no hold open is better than added hold open etc. Unit marks are cool-double dates are historical and cool too. Matching Vopos will probably become cool in the near future.


Any luger is cool-I just don't like some people inferring others are wrong or off base because of their preferences.


The market place speaks for itself.


End of rant- enjoy yer lugers


MikeP

My name is Art Buchanan. I guess I just didn't know any better than to use my real name when I joined the forum. Iam 62 years old. I have been collectiing Lugers for more than 40 years. I am a middle class citizen who is retired on a middle class retirment income. There is a whole bunch I don't know about Lugers. But in 40 years I have crossed paths with a whole lot more middle class collectors than rich collectors. [prehaps this is due to my income bracket]. I have been on Shattucks mailing list since early 1960s. I have some knowledge of Luger values and condition and value associated with condition. Certainly a $2000 Luger bought now may be worth maybe $3000 in 10 years.That is great if one can aford the initial investment. A $400 Luger purchased now may only be worth $600 in 10 years. That may be what a person can afford, but they are still a collector and have some expectation of appreciation in value. If one, in my opinion ,is a collector investment was not the only motive for buying Lugers. However there likely exist opportunists and wheelers/ dealers that are more concerned with profit and status than love of the Luger. I have participated in this forum for only a few months and I am frankly disappointed. The little guy with one or two,or perhaps first Luger doesn't have a change. I try to give serious answers to reasonable questions ask by new guys instead of jumping on their Luger. From time to time some of the forum people get personal, just as someone who calls themself Johnny Peppers as directed to me. This may be a real name or just a handle to hide behind. Either way the conduct is inappropriate for a world wide forum. I wonder sometimes if I participate for the same reason that people watched sportscaster,Howard Cosell,--they loved to hate him. If investment is the only reason one buys Lugers then I submit that there are a few investors and a whole lot of collectors. I believe the guy that bought his first Luger wasn't thinking about future value---just how can I pay for it now. I recommend that the FAQ "Shooter Lugers" be deleted and more appropriate commentary on various types and grades of Lugers that people of various means collect. Buy the way, I have a few $2000+ Lugers but a whole lot more that I value equally as part of my collection that are worth a whole lot less.

Well Art, I think y'all know my stand on this.


I appreciate the fine 95% guns, but I like the guns that have a realy history to them, were carried by soldiers, airmen and marines.


Ed

I made a mistake. I misinterpreted Johnny Peppers statement about self appointed Royalty. It was not directed to me. I have apologized to him personally and do so again in presence of all here assembled. Sorry Johnny!