M1906 Russian Luger - The Ending of its Identity

[MFC]

Just a thought,
Why would a Russian commercial have Bulgarian text on it? Maybe the same reason that some early M1906 American Eagles have German text... Gesichert safety marked. Probably just using up available frames.

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by MFC

Just a thought,
Why would a Russian commercial have Bulgarian text on it? Maybe the same reason that some early M1906 American Eagles have German text... Gesichert safety marked. Probably just using up available frames.

Correction, Mike - it cannot be a 'Russian Commercial' when the serial range is of a contract range.

Using your thought of 'just using up available frames', would your business/company make a careless mistake and send merchandise to a foreign country with the text being in an incorrect language? For example, if DWM 'just wanted to use up available frames', why not send the US Test Lugers with 'Germany' stamped on the frame? What difference does it make to the Americans?

Albert

[MFC]

Albert,
First let me say that I am a complete novice compared to you, and I'm in over my head here. But I don't understand your reasoning. DWM DID send the Americans guns with "incorrect language", as I stated above... GESICHERT marked safety on early M1906 American Eagles. I only use this example because it has the AE crest on the chamber, made only for the American market. It is beleived by some collectors that DWM was using extra frames, as the remainder of the M1906 AE's went back to the polished safety area. If I understand you correctly, using your reasoning, it was a careless mistake for DWM to do this.

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Mike,

Let me try to explain it slightly differently. Firstly, do you understand what criteria, standards, features or expectations are supposed to be noticed/applied on MILITARY CONTRACT Lugers (or Mausers)? They are usually higher and more strict than commercial requirements.

It is possible that DWM decided to use extra frames from inventory that had GESICHERT safety markings and combined these frames with AE upper receivers and sold them to American dealers. Therefore, we may very well encounter M1906 AE Commercial Lugers with GESICHERT, SAFE and plain safety levers.

However, in regards to a contract, such as the M1900 US Test Lugers, they had specific requirements (certain serial range, serial number placement in the military style, no proof marks, certain safety markings, certain extractor markings etc), and if we apply the same standards to a 'Russian Luger' (contract), the markings would NOT be in Bulgarian language. Indeed, it would be a careless mistake on the part of DWM and I am sure that DWM and its Directors would have been customer conscious during that time. If DWM 'got it right' during the political/government change in Portugal with the two M1906 Portuguese Navy Luger contracts (crown anchor and R.P. anchor), don't you think that there would have been a complaint from the Russian military to DWM asking "why did you send us pistols with Bulgarian markings?" "We speak Russian in our Army, not Bulgarian!"

I hope that I have given you a satisfactory answer.

Cheers,
Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Mike,

On the subject of languages in regards to German firearms sold to foreign countries (and I love literature), the manuals and other literature which I have seen were very accurately written in the foreign language (Spanish, French, English, Portuguese, Bulgarian), so it is obvious that the possibility of the DWM factory making a mistake with the text for a (Russian) contract will be very slim. I am sure that the factory could have consulted with somebody in the state or government who was fluent in the Russian language.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

The test lugers and also commecial american eagles were drawn from regular production. Test lugers were NOT their own serial range; if you say they were, then the contract would have been for over 7,000 pieces and that is not true.

The american eagle crest is not and never was the united states american eagle, there are differences of it from our eagle and was never requested by our gov't. this was placed there by DWM for unknown reasons. If you know otherwise, please give biography where I can look it up.


Ed

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Ed,

You are correct that the US AE Test Lugers were drawn from regular/commercial production (in the same manner as the M1900/03 Bulgarian Luger), but these 'contract' Lugers did show some particular characteristics that defined them as a 'contract' (i.e. no commercial proof marks; no 'Germany' export; and serial placements in the military style - for the US Test Luger). This US Test contract had not yet taken up the pattern of a separate serial range like what we see with the M1906 Portuguese Navy Lugers and the 'M1906 Russian Luger'. The first time we observe a separate serial range for a Luger tested by the US Government is the .45 Luger in 1907.

I cannot speak from a position of knowledge about the design and origin of the AE crest observed on AE Lugers. I suppose that it was a design created at the DWM factory which represented American nationalism (it is used before the US Test Trial Lugers), and subsequently the design was appoved by the US Government for placement on the US AE Test Lugers even though it did not match exactly the national emblem of the USA.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Hello Ed,

You are correct that the US AE Test Lugers were drawn from regular/commercial production (in the same manner as the M1900/03 Bulgarian Luger), but these 'contract' Lugers did show some particular characteristics that defined them as a 'contract' (i.e. no commercial proof marks; no 'Germany' export; and serial placements in the military style - for the US Test Luger). This US Test contract had not yet taken up the pattern of a separate serial range like what we see with the M1906 Portuguese Navy Lugers and the 'M1906 Russian Luger'. The first time we observe a separate serial range for a Luger tested by the US Government is the .45 Luger in 1907.

I cannot speak from a position of knowledge about the design and origin of the AE crest observed on AE Lugers. I suppose that it was a design created at the DWM factory which represented American nationalism (it is used before the US Test Trial Lugers), and subsequently the design was appoved by the US Government for placement on the US AE Test Lugers even though it did not match exactly the national emblem of the USA.

Albert

Albert, please show me where the US gov't approved this design, I have never read this anywhere.

I also have read through Dwight's commericial database and it shows pre-test lugers and post test AE's with no germany marking (sn 7976 has no germany stamping)

ED

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Ed,

Sorry I made a slight mistake in my previous explanation. Maybe the word 'approved' was the wrong word, instead I prefer to say that the US government 'informally adopted' or 'had no objection to maintaining the AE design from DWM' in view of the fact that the emblem is exactly the same on both the US Test Lugers and those sold to the American civilian market.

In the same way that we may encounter M1906 AE Lugers with three different types of safety markings, it demonstrates that commercial pistols do not always have to be follow a certain pattern, therefore, it is acceptable to encounter commercial AE Lugers without and without the 'Germany' export marking.

Cheers,
Albert

[Imperial Arms]

There will likely remain a few critics for the survival of the 'Russian Luger' no matter how compelling the theory/information I have presented that it is another Bulgarian variation because these critics are either simply ignorant (no offense intended), or they have a vested interest.

Some collectors are willing to accept any thing which is stated by an expert or an authority, or they are afraid of hearing disappointing news which will kill their ‘dreams’.

I can consider myself fortunate to have examined the finest and rarest Lugers and Mausers in the world and while talking with these important owners, I have heard information which many collectors do not know or are unaware. I can sometimes forget information which was shared with me from many years ago, but recently my memory was refreshed with certain information which will stab again the ‘Russian theory’ for whatever remains of its mistaken identity.

I suppose that those critics who continue to support the identity of the ‘M1906 Russian Luger’ will also uphold the ‘M1900 Russian Luger’ described in extensive detail on the web site ‘Land of Borchardt’ (LOB) created by Charles Whittaker. I wish to quote again a statement from LOB:

“The fact that eight M1900 Russian Parabellums have been identified is irrefutable testimony to its existence, and when the next noted Luger author picks up the pen for the next chapter in Luger history, hopefully, will acknowledge and recognize the Model 1900 Russian Parabellum as a legitimate and unquestionable LUGER VARIATION…It seems certain from looking at the table that the 1900 Russian Parabellum is a genuine Luger variation”

I being a modest collector in search of knowledge, maybe the critics and Charles Whittaker can explain why a M1902 Luger Carbine with crossed rifles on the chamber surfaced soon after the first M1900 Russian Luger appeared at a gun show? You figure it out, and fit it into the ‘Russian theory’! Clue: it is similar to the Luger Carbine in .45 caliber.

All the best,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Some collectors are willing to accept any thing which is stated by an expert or an authority...

I believe you are correct!

[Heinz]

How is LOB's conjecture any more far fetched than your Bulgarian officer's hypothesis??
You have made a hypothesis. Although you present some logic, you present no proof.

[Ron Wood]

I will repeat here the response I posted on Jan Still's forum:

Offense taken. You have fired your last egotistical barb. I will no longer participate in this senseless self gratification. I acknowledged that your theory was well thought out and had promise but was not conclusive. You could not accept that in good grace. I asked that you refrain from personal attacks but you just can't help yourself. I will no longer participate in discussions on this or any other forum that you use to insult people and then try to make light of it with smiley faces or "no offense intended". You do intend to insult and offend and continue to do so. You have heard the last from this old goat.

To the rest of the members of this forum, I sincerely apologize. I will miss exchanging good thoughts and information with you.
Ron

[lugerholsterrepair]

Ron, Having followed this thread from the beginning I have to agree with you. Arrogance and surliness by someone with no proof and a wild theory tickling his fancy...Uncalled for and ungentalmanly. Several posters on this thread are guilty of a rude attitude and should be ashamed. They might not know who they are as they are full of themselves.

Research and presentation of theory should be given objectively. The snide remarks and rude insinuations I have read here demean Alberts & others arguments to meaningless drivel to me. This superior attitude taints an otherwise intelligent discourse.

I hold most collectors here in very high regards..untill the true nature of their personality appears showing me who they really are.

Ron, I hope you will reconsider and continue to be a beacon we can all turn towards and respect. God knows we need one here.

Jerry Burney

[RichSr]

Before my Army buddy Ed closes this thread (or disciplines me for the following) I feel compelled to comment.

Ron
Please do not desert this forum. You’re an invaluable asset to all who read your posts. I particularly enjoy much that you write.
After studying this and many other posts by Albert, I must commend him on all that he has learned in his twelve years. That is assuming his chronological age matches the behavior he exhibits here on this forum. As some have stated or politely alluded to earlier, to continually insult and belittle anyone who disagrees with your “theory” does not advance your position nor even make for a productive discourse. You used the word ”modest” in a recent post, but the only thing modest I see concerning you is your ability to carry on a civil discussion. In other words, that task seems to be beyond your capabilities. I could go on but am afraid it would just be “pearls before swine” as I don’t believe you are capable of understanding the childishness of your postings.
Your boorish behavior has been graciously suffered by a number of gentlemen here and I believe many would agree with me that you owe the Forum an apology.
Of course "no offense intended"

[policeluger]

Mr. Wood, what Jerry said......

[wlyon]

Ron
In any group or organization there are always people like Albert . What they have to offer is buried in attitude that we don't need. But speaking of need we need you on this Forum.This Forum is where we learn about our hobby. You are one of our outstanding teachers. I truly hope you will reconsider and remain on both Forums. There are many great people on the Forums. Do not let one arrogant outspoken person to rob us of your expertise. You have something Albert will never have, our respect. Your friend Bill

[Neil Young]

Ron:
I am not an old timer on this forum, but I am a daily visitor and sometime poster. I have learned a great deal from people like you and value contributions made by you and many others here. Your participation is much more valuable than some of the "others".

If we would all just ignore those who offend and not grace them with a response, then they might go away.

[Imperial Arms]

Fellow collectors & friends,

Some people are taking my post/comment as an insult, belittling to others, a childish or immature attitude on my part, or improper conduct. You can interpret it any way you want, but there was no insult to Ron, who I respect and value as a friend. Everybody has the right/freedom to believe what they want no matter how strong or weak the presentation/case is. Surprisingly, some collectors cannot handle compelling information based on strong historical events or evidence because it goes against their philosophy and they may prefer to believe something else – no problem.

Ron, firstly, I did not address you in my post (i.e. Hello Ron…) and I did not direct the word ‘ignorant’ to you; however, you may still be a critic for whatever reasons, and there is no objection to your position. Secondly, the word ‘ignorant’ is not insulting, so I do not understand you ‘taking offense’, unless I have offended two very dear friends who I do not respect:

Definitions:
1. Lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man;
2. Lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics;
3. Uninformed; unaware;
4. Due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

On the other hand, you may have a ‘vested interest’ in view of the fact that you own a very fine M1908 Bulgarian Infantry Officers Luger in your collection which gives you the concern that its value will be impacted based on the new information which I have presented on this subject. I do not think the value will decline after this new information or theory – in fact, it will probably go up in value now that it has some substance behind it instead of an ‘headline’ label.

Without being egotistical (I have nothing to gain by such an attitude), I suppose that many collectors do not notice what is going on in the back ground and, therefore, they make choices or take positions which are wrong. What you read, hear or believe from unreliable sources can be misleading and costly, and sadly some collectors will become innocent victims down the road. Who is there to help or educate them when large sums of money could be lost? Why not simply say “who the f*** cares” when they are suppose to be the next in line for the continuation of our hobby? I value and greatly appreciate what I have in my modest collection and whatever decisions I make in the future with regards to my collection, I would feel proud to pass on any item with confidence as well as my reputation behind it.

The past actions of some ‘big-heads’ have disgust me and who says a word about it? I suppose many collectors prefer to remain ‘hush-hush’ because the ‘expert’ or ‘authority’ who has spoken the holy word is seen in high regard due to size of his collection and/or wallet, and the ‘colorfulness’ of a web site. I assume that due to their important recognition, they are always excused from their wrong actions. I am not jealous of such collectors who have tried to condemn guns in other collections without any justifiable reason. What the hell did I do to deserve such an attack and I never received an apology? Well, until I receive an apology for their wrongful mistakes, I shall put them down whether it is in private or in public – and make no mistake that they went public with their attacks by putting it in writing. Excuse me, but that is a ‘no-no’ in my book! It makes me laugh when reference is made to such people who want to remain invisible. Maybe they consider we collectors on the forums are ‘nobodies’.

Allow me to explain how information can be shared between good and intelligent collectors in our society. When I had introduced the ‘Bulgarian theory’ on the two forums, I also sent the article to Charles Kenyon who originally called this Luger the ‘M1906 Russian Luger’ in his book ‘Lugers at Random’. After he listened to the new information, he took his extensive knowledge of Lugers and history and came to the same conclusion as I that it is much more Bulgarian instead of Russian. He accepts that his book has some out-dated information and he welcomes new views and opinions. However, on the forums, there seems to be heated debate and strong resistance for reasons which cannot be explained; maybe nobody wants to speak, or there is some form of defense going on.

Whatever the outcome, all I can say is ‘more power to everyone no matter what direction we go’.

Good luck and enjoy,
Albert

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

I hold most collectors here in very high regards..untill the true nature of their personality appears showing me who they really are.

Ron, I hope you will reconsider and continue to be a beacon we can all turn towards and respect. God knows we need one here.

Jerry Burney

+ 1

Edmund Burke said all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

Ron, we need you here...