Police Luger Unit Mark

[Jamka]

Eric,

No, I certainly do not think so. Don Maus and I were just jumping back into the discussion we had some six years ago about the unmarked toggles of many pistols that came out of the DWM factory during 1928-1929.
And it seems that the last word about this issue has not yet been spoken...

[cirelaw]

Thats because we find the so exciting! My life would't be as FUN with out them!

[cirelaw]

Joop I have a matching takedown to the holster L.M.28. I've never owned a match.

[Dwight Gruber]

Originally Posted by Don M

The key hangup to concluding that all of the blank toggle 29 DWMs were originally manufactured for export to the Riff Tribe is the apparent inconsistency between August Weiss' reference to a "paar Tausend" which can be understood as either a "few thousand" or a "couple of thousand" and the evidence that approximately 15,000 blank toggle Lugers were produced by DWM/BKIW in the late 1920s. Dwight, some years ago you felt the Riff contract was for 2,500 pistols which is consistent with Weiss' recollection (http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=4937). Have you found new information?

In 2004, with the publications at the time, that was the estimated production. A lot of information has come under the bridge since then, including August Weiss's comment.

I come down on the side of Herr Weiss's comment that he means "a few thousand." I can't help but think that if he meant 2,000 guns, he would have said "zwei Tausend," but that is my inductive reasoning.

Much of the information in Kenyon is obsolete. I tend toward scepticism of extrapolating production numbers based on reported samples. On the current topic, in the absence of documentation, I simply do not believe the 15,000 figure.


Joop,

In his diary, does Herr Weiss write "das Paar", or "ein paar"?

--Dwight

[Don M]

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

I tend toward scepticism of extrapolating production numbers based on reported samples. On the current topic, in the absence of documentation, I simply do not believe the 15,000 figure.

Dwight, your point is well taken. My earlier estimate of 15,000 was inherently based on the assumption that the reported examples of blank toggle pistols were from a random sample of the total production at that time. However, further reflection leads me to believe the reported examples are from a sample that is heavily biased toward attractiveness to GIs and collectors and therefore represts only a subset of the total production.

I have tried another method of data analysis. Using your Commercial list, I counted 169 reported blank toggles in the s, t, u and v series. If that number is a sample of an original number of 2500 such Lugers, it would represent a 7% "survival" rate. I have calculated survival rates for the Lugers of many police units and this number is reasonable, especially when compared with those of Landjägerei units. Consequently, I now agree with you that the blank toggle 29 DWMs are from the canceled Riff contract and that no other explanation is necessary. Thanks very much for challenging my earlier conclusion.

[cirelaw]

I'm sorry I opened up a can of Luger Worms!!

[cirelaw]

How often would you find a semi matching police holster a a matching "28 takedown key??

[alanint]

More surprises coming from the Police pistol I initially posted. The owner brought in a cut down police holster, which was captured with the gun, but heavily altered into a shoulder holster by the GI who captured it, (The GI was Thomas A Owens, 1922-2010, who wrote a book about his experiences called "An ordinary man in extraordinary times").

http://www.amazon.com/An-Ordinary-Ma...ordinary+times

The holster is marked A. Fisher, Berlin C2, 1929, has the police sunburst and police Unit mark L.33.133, (overstamped and obscured and only partially readable).

Also there is a spare magazine, aluminum bottom, marked "3" at the top, 6296, no suffix, "+" and has what looks like a starburst and K as a proof. The aluminum bottom seems to also have a strange insert, like later mags, visible only on one side.

There were also several ammunition boxes; one WW1, several WW2 and one 1943 dated .22 box.

[alanint]

More photos...

[alanint]

And again....

[cirelaw]

There seems to been an ammo gap!i have a 1900 then we jump the 1918 blue and brown. My next and last occur in the early 40s. Was there any ammo between these 2 dates? There has to be!

[alanint]

Can anyone give me a ballpark of what the three types of ammo boxes are worth?
- WW1, opened but full
- WW2, opened but full, in the conditions pictured
- WW2, .22 caliber, opened but full

Also, ballpark on the spare magazine, as pictured?

[cirelaw]

I paid $75 for mine pristene ww2. $100 for the ww1 brown and blue box each. They are going up yearly up!!

[Don M]

Doug, the markings on your holster prove it has been with your gun since they were issued in 1929-30. There are actually two successive police markings on the right rear. The first was stamped in 1932 when marking instructions were issued for the Landjägerei. It is the same as on the grip strap, L.Ar.185. In 1937, unit markings were terminated for police weapons --- manufacturers serial numbers were to be used for inventory purposes. Holsters were stamped with the serial number of the gun. In this instance, the old marking was partially overstamped with the serial number 3313. It's a shame the GI messed with the holster but it is still a very interesting and genuine rig.

[alanint]

Thanks for the additional insight, Don!!

Would $2,000 for the rig, with a copy of the capturing GI's book be reasonable? The owner wishes to sell.

[Don M]

Doug, I'm not a good one to ask. I think it is a very neat rig, particularly with the id and book of the vet who brought it back. I would certainly be willing to pay $2000 for it but I'm more interested in the history associated with it. If you are concerned about resale value, I'm afraid the "average collctor" would be turned off by the holster mods and devalue it. Short answer - I don't know. I hope others will offer opinions.

[gunnertwo]

Listmembers,

Just adding my pistol to the discussion. It's a 29DWM blank toggle and chamber, police issue almost identical to the one pictured in the first post. The serial number is "1585 u".The front strap is marked " L. Ar. 220. Is it a coincidence that I'm noticing a few guns from Arnsberg? I fairly sure my holster and take down tool match. I will pull it from storage to confirm.

For clarification, the blank chamber / toggle guns were planned for the Riff contract and were then diverted to police use? So, if I reading it correctly there would be around 2K completely unmarked pistols with the rest produced with DWM marked toggles?

Thanks for a very interesting discussion.

G2

[Don M]

Originally Posted by gunnertwo

Is it a coincidence that I'm noticing a few guns from Arnsberg?

These things come in spurts. One person will post an item and others will think "I have one like it" and post theirs --- just like you did.

Originally Posted by gunnertwo

For clarification, the blank chamber / toggle guns were planned for the Riff contract and were then diverted to police use? So, if I reading it correctly there would be around 2K completely unmarked pistols with the rest produced with DWM marked toggles?

Correct!

[NoncomRetired]

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Im posting 2 pages whose tables fall right in my originals, Holster 'L.M.28. Luger L.Ka.124!

I recently purchased a 1929 police sneak with the serial number 6151t and with the unit markings L.Ka 315 in case anyone wants to take note of it's existance. Won't arrive till later this week.

I made a trip to Simpsons in Galesberg last week and while I was there, it was on my agenda to pick up this book but I was distracted and left without getting one. It's still on my agenda.

[cirelaw]

Congrads upon your purchase. I checked Eds' new book "Police Lugers" and "History Writt In Steel"! Your luger is not recorded in either! The value of these historic luger can only rise as we now have 2 excellant books on this subject! They each tell a fabulous story!! You should be a proud owner! Eric