I don't understand this...

[Dok]

Simpsons Ltd has the following listed under One of a Kind Collectibles...


OK-1 DWM 1902 CARBINE, 30 cal, exc+ 98% overall except poor bore, an excellent almost perfect restoration by Gale Morgan, reproduction stock, looks like one we recently sold for $25,000.00 (see photo) $10,500.00


Now is it a collectible or not??? It's my understanding that a restored pistol is not a collectible EVEN if Gale Morgan did it? Collectors... your comments!






http://www.simpsonltd.com/images/Ok1.jpg

[Kyrie]

Hi Dok!


The rule of thumb is a well done restoration has about half the collector value an unrestored piece would have in the same condition.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[lugerholsterrepair]

Value schmalue, Which one of us wouldn't love to own this piece...Hey nothings perfect but I could be proud to own any carbine someday..If only I had a rich uncle...Jerry

Jerry, you must be in the same boat as me. Poor (or at least no money to me!) relatives!


Yes, a carbine is high on my wish list too!


Although a .45 Luger would be cool, but, uh, well, not many of them around...


Ed

[John D.]

First - it looks as thought the stock is a replacement given the piece and the cutting on the stock (diamond pattern - right era, wrong pattern for an '02 (I can't really see the hardware - which is another indication), I believe..). If its not the original stock (the forestock looks to be correct, though - at least from the photo?), then that will effect the value.


Second, the grips do not match either stocks. Either they are "new" (non-original) or were refurbished.


Since the piece is restored, it will take several thousand off the price. If the stock is not original - then the asking price would be about right - or a tad on the high side, even though it's a Morgan restoration. If you are shopping in this price range - then I'd think most collectors would want original/original.


Is any carbine collectible, though? Yes - as long as it was originally a carbine, IMHO..!


Best to all for a great thanksgiving!!!

This subject has been hashed out from time to time. The end result seems to leave impression with newbies that if it ain't near mint it is not collectible. The term "shooter" contnues to thrown around to infer a substandard Luger that no one would enjoy or may have much use for unless they wanted it to knock around with at the range. The term is used to degrade a Luger when a dealer is buying. Surely you all note that thousands of import Lugers have been sold in past years. Do you guys think that they are only being enjoyed and purchased for the sole purchase to shoot them. Also note that Simpson and others advertise restored Lugers at some high prices [and someone seems to buy them] I note a KU on Simpson list with import marks that sure sold for a bunch more than a so called "shooter". My thought is that a shooter luger would be one with significant mismatch parts and well worn finish or pitting. I firmly believe that there are a whole lot more guys out there that collect some nice Lugers that may have a mismatched side plate, trigger or safety lever etc---but basicaly a mostly original Luger that looks good to them. Some times these can be made to look better by finding a matching part. Maybe restraw parts or rechecker grips---and heaven forbid use a bit of professional touch up blue on the side plate hump. The Luger then looks a bunch better to the owner and is more impressive to his friends. AND it did not cost a fortune to own. The "experts" then say you have devalued the Luger. I disagree---if the Luger only cost $500 to start with and one spent some time on it and maybe another $50 ---I'll bet it is still worth $550. "Pretty" sells things . So, unless you have a rare Luger, I say to you new guys---go ahead and make it look pretty. If it only cost $500 to start with---you are going to have to really screw it up to make it worth less than $500 next year. Unless the Luger is a near piece of crap that is only mechanicaly safe---quit calling them "shooters" Call them lesser grade collectibles or something! But let us not discourage and down grade the regular wage earner who can only aford less than mint Lugers by refering to theirs as just Shooters. They are just as proud of thier Lugers as the well healed collector.

[Big Norm]

This is something that gets me too. I agree with both Art and John D. That we may be degrading restored guns too much. After all, there are outstanding restorers and there are hackers. I think that so called restorers that turn a buffing wheel loose on a Luger ought to have their fingers cut off. But a John Martz Luger commands high prices and they are all restored. I have seen excellent jobs done by professional restorers and I would not be afraid to buy their products.I have some Kreighoff's that I cannot tell if they have been restored or not. I have had them appraised by experts and the results have been mixed.


Generally, I regard myself as a purist. But I have found some really ugly Lugers and have turned them over to an expert that I know who has done some great work for me. I once bought a 1916 navy that was badly abused. But it was all there and the bore was excellent. No deep pitting and decent grips numbered to the gun. When my expert finished this Luger it was beautiful. What was the future for this gun? To be continuously abused until it was just a hunk of scrap to be melted down in some sheriffs oven? Well, it is now a prize and I am sure that someday, somebody will be proud to own it. I really feel that I gave that gun a new life. And anybody who thumbs their nose at that gun because it has been restored is just plain dumb.


Strawing color is easy to do but difficult to do it right. I have continuously commented on the good quality of Thors work. But I have seen some real hack work done on restrawing that has absolutely ruined the parts.


Lugers are gradually disappearing for a number of reasons. But, the demand for decent Lugers is growing. Navy Lugers are very hard to find. Most rare Russian Lugers are restored. Restored Kreighoffs are hard to differentiate from original. Now common artilleries are gradually becoming scare. But some Lugers I would not dream of restoring. I have a 1906 navy, 1st issue, unaltered that I would not dream of restoring. It ain't pretty, but its all original. The markings and originality are important on that particular gun.


Somehow, we have to differentiate a hackers "resoration (?)" from a professionals restoration. Good restoration is art. Somehow, we have to separate an altered and restored Luger (counterfeit) from an all original but restored Luger. And we should do it now because the day is coming when an original but professionally restored Luger will cost as much as as an original Luger. And in some cases, more.


My two cents worth of opinion.

Big Norm

[lugerholsterrepair]

Big Norm, I am curious to know what you mean by strawing that destroyed parts. Any metal part that has a straw color was brought to somewhere around 550 degrees F. Excuse me but I would have to go dig out my metal heating chart to tell you exactly and it is not handy right now. But this temperature is in no way hot enough to destroy steel. Of course there are varaying temps and colors but if it gets too dark you buff it off and if too light, heat it some more. I have strawed many gun parts and to be honest it is easier than baking bread. As long as you have a relatively accurate way to tell the temp and clean the part, remove all oil and wash with alchohol it turns a beautiful straw every time.Then oil liberally with a good quality oil. I use several oven thermometers made by Taylor and keep an eye on it thru the toaster oven window with a flashlight. You don"t even need a thermometer as you can go by the color as it heats up.. I am working on case hardening and want to do a few parts for fun. That requires 1600 degrees F. So it is a little more difficult. Just curious..Jerry

[bill m]

Hi all,

Once a Luger is refinished, it can never be of original issue again. An original will always bring more than a refinished in the same condition. Rarity is what determines the price on some of the refinished Lugers. I personally do not want a refinished piece in my collection no matter how rare it is. I would rather have a 50% original conditioned piece than the refinished one. Not everyone agree's with this line of thinking. Also, the good experts can tell the refinished Lugers, so some of the high dollar refinished Lugers are being used to fool collectors that don't know their stuff -- like Krieghoff's. One other problem is that 97% isn't good enough for some people, so they send them away to get a new face lift. Some say that a refinished Luger is okay, because in 10 or 20 more years, no one will be around that can tell an original finish from an reworked Luger. I hope they are wrong. A messed with Luger, no matter how great the refinisher is, is still a messed with Luger. Perhaps they have more value to some than a true shooter, but they can never claim to be the real original as issued Luger ever again. This will always keep the value down to the true Luger collectors. The only way the value can be equal is if they are represented as an original. There will always be a difference between shooters and collectors as to preference, quality, and value, to which condition is the determining factor.

[G.T.]

Hi Bill, I agree with 98% of your statement with the exception of "the original will always bring more then a refinished" I fell this is true 99% of the time, and always true when comparing factory variations...but if you look at John V. Martz's creations, he always starts with non collectable Lugers & P.38's, and turns them into works of art, commanding 10 to 20 times their original value, and they sell!! Although I realize this is not what you had in mind about refinish or restoration, the fact remains that he is taking noncollectable Lugers of lesser value and turning them into collectables of greater value!! till...later...G.T.

Being written up in Guns and Ammo and other Magazines certainly doesn't hurt the value of Martz Lugers. I have built 10 baby Lugers that I have been told are more authentic than his---but I'll bet they won't fetch the same money as his because my name is under the grip instead of Martz. But---that is the way it is--please don't send Guns and Ammo guys to my house. I suppose his are collectible and mine are just "shooters"

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bill , In my opinion a luger that leaves the factory is in a transition and it will never be original again. Every time it is picked up or shot it changes, going downhill. You may think that people cannot be fooled by restrawing but a re-straw and a trip to the tumble polisher to add a little wear and presto changeo. As I have said before if you find the pistol of your dreams at a gun show you want to escape with it out the door befor anyone knows what you have found. Bad light and other less than desirable circumstances tend to color our observations.I personally use a $600.00 pair of surgeons magnafying glasses to look over many of the pistols I come accross. Holsters and tools too. Besides I read the forum, NAPCA magazine, and try to keep up with all the tricks of the trade to discover fakery wherever it is found. I always appreciate whenever people tell me of any faults they know about but it dosen't have to change hands often to lose the provenance. That's what this forum is good for is to exchange these thoughts. Good job guys! Jerry

And there we are again----$600 surgeon glasses VS my $1.98 coin collector glass. What next? portable xray? If I am not a serious buyer--I leave them alone and keep my comments to myself. Kind of like if you ain't buying,don't play with the merchandise. But each to his own!

[Johnny Peppers]

Jerry,

I have heard of several methods used to age refinished Lugers, but have never heard of using a tumbler. How would tumbling the parts do anything but take all the finish back off. Wouldn't you want selective wear on the small parts?

[Big Norm]

Jerry,


Your absolutely correct in your comments about the heat treatment. But what I am talking about is in the prep work and not the heat treatment. Any professional restorer worth his or her salt will tell you that removing the least amount of metal is primary in restoration. Preserving detail is very important. How many times have you seen the locking bolt thats been restrawed were the flat and the champered edge have been removed to the point that that area is practically rounded and the numbers almost gone. Look at Thors work. He keeps that area flat like its supposed to be. I have never physically examined his work close but the pictures look good. I have a trigger that someone turned a buffing wheel loose on to remove pitting. There isn't a flat area on its sides to be found.


Prep work is vital to good work both in strawing and in bluing. Removal of metal should be kept to an absolute minimum. After all, you are restoring and not just re-coloring. Attention to detail is very important. Sometimes it is best to leave small pits on the part. Here is where the artistery and talent of the restorer comes to bear. Then we get to the actual cleaning, heat treatment and the finish polishing which I won't get into here.


Personally, I believe that a hackers method of buffing any gun is the worst possible down and dirty method of preping. These people have destroyed parts and done more damage than they have helped.


But here is where in my earlier discussion, I tried to differentiate a quality restoration from a hackers destruction. To condemn a Luger to a greatly reduced valuation because it has been restored is not entirely correct. Some people are very, very good at restoring.

Big Norm

[Big Norm]

We have had this discussion before and I am still amazed at the range and depth of discussion of this topic. I am convinced that this is one of the greatest beauties of the Lugerforum and I personally enjoy it a lot. I imagine coin collectors have the same discussions.


I have never heard of tumbling a Lugers parts to "age" a Luger. That seems a bit rough. But I have heard rumors of big name dealers using fine steel wool or leather belts to "age" a gun.


I have never physically seen the results of a Gale Morgan restoration, but I have a book that shows what he went through on a very rare "20-Shot Flatside Mauser Broomhandle". (Gun Collector's Digest, 4th edition, by Joseph Schroeder, pg 122). The gun was a piece of Ka-Ka when he started and it was a gem when he finished. The books pictures are in black and white so its hard to evaluate the actual finished work. I have talked to the man on the phone and it takes a long time for him to do a gun and he isn't cheap. But he brought this gun out of a garbage can and gave it new life so I cannot condemn him. In his article, he has a questionaire as to whether or not to restore a gun. It is worth reading.


I have talked to John Martz on the phone and have found him to be one heck of a class act guy. I would love to have one of his guns. But I would be terrified to shoot it at the prices that he charges. Not only can I not condemn him but it is one of my fondest hopes to accept his invitation to visit his place in California. Maybe I should not accept his invitation because I might blow a lot of money on one of his guns. I would sure love to hold and examine one his larger caliber Lugers.


I have looked at the pictures of HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr's guns on the "Owners' Corner" of the forum. Although they are not Lugers, I still enjoy looking at them. I wouldn't mind having one either.


Somehow though, I cannot condemn the output of these artesians. I cannot put them and some other people I know of in the class of what I call hackers. A well done restored Luger cannot just be put in a broad class of the lowered evaluation given to restored or retouched guns.


I still look for original Lugers for my personal collection. But I have to admit that a well restored, unaltered Luger created from a gun out of a gargage can is good for collecting. You should analyse each gun on its own merits as to if it should be restored.

Big Norm

[Johnny Peppers]

A few years back a friend of mine found a low three digit serial number 1900 commercial that had been buffed and hot salt blued. Normally he would never have a Luger restored, but as this piece had not had the frame modification and had already been buffed all to hell he had it restored. Even though it was a high quality professional restoration it is still very evident that it has been restored. For one thing it had to have a lot of metal removed to put the sharp lines back where they should be.

[G.T.]

Hi Johnny! With the welding talent that is out there now, and the low cost of heli-arc TIG welders, I'm sure that many of even the worst metal removal jobs can be reversed!!! It's just a question of value and cost....plus experience and time! I have seen stock lugs replaced and lanyard loop relief's welded in, and you can't tell from the outside that it had ever been tinkered with! Wish I could weld like that!! till...later...G.T.

[Johnny Peppers]

GT,

Due to the terrible buffing this Luger had suffered it would have to have been built up all over. It looks fine in a display, but it doesn't take much of an expert to tell that it is a restoration.

[G.T.]

Yes, sadly I have seen pistols like that too! It would probably be easier to make a part from scratch then to refurbish it with welding! The buffing wheel has claimed as many nice guns as has the anti-gun lobby.....I guess that's why rare guns seem to get more rare! People keep distroying them! till...later...G.T.