Navy Lugers-Original and Otherwise

[tom]

Gentlemen,


As one who has been collecting over 50 years and who now specializes in Navy toggle tops, I feel compelled to add my zwei pfennigs.


First of all, Navy pistols are not inflated in price. They simply follow classic economic theory. There ain't many of them and lots more folks want them than there are available pieces. Ergo, the price rises to meet demand.


Secondly,having stated the above, I freely admit that collecting Navy Lugers is not something that could be called a hobby for the frugal. They can be damnably expensive as a result of my previous comments. The ones with all of the accessories or having particular markings command a premium on top of the already high prices for the garden variety original navy.


Because of these factors, a prudent soul will do the "due dilligence" necessary to protect himself and his investment prior to consumating a deal with anyone for one of these pricey artifacts. Inherent in the due dilligence process is establishing beyond any doubt of a piece's authenticity. To do this requires some fairly indepth knowledge of arcane facts about how these beauties were made and the effects of time and oxygen on steel and wood.


What I am trying to say in a fairly roundabout way is that if a home made Navy Luger can fool you, you probably need to study a lot more before you step off down this collecting trail. There are some simple but fool proof ways to determine the authenticity of a Navy, including its markings, finish and internal parts. But one must know exactly what they are looking for AND at. Suffice it to say, one needs more than the naked eye and gunshow lighting to accomplish this.


So, let me bottom line it: If you have ANY doubt of your ability to distinguish a genuine, all original, navy from an "enhanced" or home made version, stay out of the water.


If any forum member is contemplating purchase of a Navy that is purported to be 100% original, I will be pleased to assist in the "due dilligence", off forum.


FWIW, and they are typically worth $2500 up,


Tom

[G.T.]

[Marvin]

Tom,


I said basically the same thing in veryt different wording in the original thread. Yours is well worded!!!!


Marvin



P.38 Forum

[lugerholsterrepair]

I have been busy with my move back to my summer home but have taken the time to read all about the Navy sight controversy.


I am a member of NAPCA the NRA and I am very fond of cats. I collect Navy lugers and their accoutrements as well as manufacture Luger lanyards,double magazine pouches, Navy holsters, straps and everything emaginable concerning leather and metal parts for same.


I share Big Norms concerns about replica Navy Luger sights and believe as he does that it could present a problem to someone who is unknowledgeable about the subject. Just as many of the items I make. I do not want to join the ranks of fakers but I must admit I tread a fine line because of the trade I engage in. I sell all of my items as museum grade reproductions with no markings whatsoever. I freely admit I would have a hard time telling if it were original after it leaves my hands. When making baby Luger holsters this is not a problem because of the nature of the piece, other items such as holster repair tend to be left up to the owner to disclose or not.


Steve had a good take on Neils project with the idea of modifying the sight to such specifications as to leave no doubt as to it's authenticity. Tom also has offered good advice as well as some others.


While I agree with Big Norms sentiment to some degree I abhor the personal attack style visited on Ted Green as I know him to be an Honorable, Honest and Generous man. I would not hesitate to have personal or business dealings with him on any occasion. Neil is a person whom I have never been introduced to, nor had any business dealings with so I cannot vouch for him but I will say that I encourage his quest for a reproduction Navy sight if it can be made palatable to the collecting fraturnity by some minor but obvious modification in style. I personally feel this would be a project for a master machinest at the least and would be quite an accomplishment.


The Forum is an excellent place to discuss these things and I firmly believe that if Neil and Ted meant to defraud this would be a poor place to start. Constructive comments made by many Forum members are welcomed and appropriate. As many of you know I have been quite verbal about issues on the Forum when I think an injustice has been perpetrated. I Strongly believe Big Norm could offer an olive branch here to maintain the fellowship of friendship here on the Forum. I would think some of us would feel better about all of this if the discussion were to remain friendly. Jerry Burney

[tom]

Thanks!


Tom

[bill m]

Hi Tom,

As we both know, not everyone is into Lugers as deeply as others are. You and I have spent an ungodly amount of time studing and learning and picking up tricks to tell what is what. These new guys haven't and there isn't many that are sharing first hand what to look for. --- We both know that there are some exception fakes out there that are capable of fooling a lot of experienced collectors, let alone the novice collectors. When this stuff is made purposely to fool you, and it is that good, all we can do is to help each other to learn the real ones from the made up ones. Sharing names and characteristics is the key. All of us can be fooled, and most of us have been, that is why some of us are so concerned about this subject. Take care good buddy, -- bill m

Reminds me of the time four of us "experts" were closely examining a navy Luger at a gun show, trying to help a fellow collector determine it's authenticity. After a long and detailed examination, we unanimously turned thumbs down on the $3200 purchase because we all felt the gun was too perfect to be original!!!

[tom]

Cowboy Bill,


Hozitgoin?

I agree with you. I guess the thing that bothers me is how anyone would consider paying the kind of money that a nice Navy commands when they are either uncertain of their own judgment or have doubts about a piece's authenticity.


Some months ago I posted a walk through a potentially interesting "sneak" piece and described in detail z'ackly what I was looking for and what I found in an attempt to share some knowledge. I don't think I got a single off list request for additional information.


My conclusion was that folks either already knew about the tell tale signs I was describing or didn't believe me or didn't care.


And you are right, we have both invested a whole lot of time and $$ in pursuing this hobby, but it has been worth it.


Tom

I appreciate the comments you gentlemen have made and shared with us. I can assure you that it was and is not my intent to cheat anybody. I in my life time have been involved in a half dozen or more businesses as well as being an Engineer with GE and to the best of my knowledge have never taken agvantage of any customers, good or bad.


In the proposed making of the Navy sights I thought that I possibly could share with those interested a piece of the past. Now I doubt if I want to spend the time involved. This type of a project is not one pulled out of one's back pocket, but requires untold time and Cost


Too me it was a challange to be on a par with the skilled gentlemen (and ladies if there were some)who built these weapons. Maybe a way for me to go back with those and feel as if I really was a part of it.


Neil

[G.T.]

I find your quest refreshing... it has definitly opened up a can of worms, (a real big can of worms!) but, it has actually stimulated some very brisk and pointed discussion....the very reason this forum exsists! I think you could pursue your quest with wideopen parameters...all the way from an exact navy replica, to a neat modern takeoff of the original unit! I do not think it feasible, or cost effective to make a sight that would be exactly as original, as just making the rear toggle piece itself would be an extrordinary feat! I hope you don't lose your enthusiam, as the personal satisfaction is reward enough for the effort! till...later...G.T.

GT.

Thanks. After Big Norm's post I will admitt I lost my appreciation of some of those posting to the forum. I never thought that I would see this kind of a post. It has NOT dappened my spirts and I will do what ever I desire in the way of making, rebuilding etc. of the Luger.


BTW. I will blow my own horn a little and let the forum know that I have a 1911 on the cover of Custom Combat Handguns Annual. Maybe I'll build a special Luger and submit it next time.


Neil

[G.T.]

[John Sabato]

I would love to have a whole set in my collection of blueprints...


thanks,


John Sabato

[Hugh]

I went thru my archives and found a copy of the Nov '71 Shooting Times article by Skeeter Skelton where he describes rebuilding a shooter Luger and mounting a MMC sight designed for the PPK on it. I have a couple of these sights, one on a HP and one on a Colt Commander. They are very small adjustable sights. The only problem is that they have discontinued them. I visited the MMC website (www.mmcsight.com) and they have changed the style of their sights and only list them for limited models of guns. It is possible that one of their present sights might work, but they appear to be larger than the old PPK sights.

[Barry Briscoe]

A reproduction could use a different font on the Navy rear sight for the ranges and that would make it easily distinguishable from an original.I might consider making some reproduction parts also as soon as I can get my equipment together,hopefully by the end of this year.

[Hugh]

The S&W is doing great.


I quote from Skeeters's article:

"Meshing the sight with the Luger toggle is simple work for a milling machine. A Rockwell C-scale hardness test showed that the heat-treated skin of the toggle could be easily ground off to expose soft metal that could be handled by the milling machine.

The original sight was ground off with a surface grinder, the position for the new dovetail slot scribed, and the hard surface ground away with a hand grinder. The new dovetail was milled, and the tiny new adjustable sight was pressed into place over a coat of LocTite.

The result was an extremely neat, attractive rear sight that conforms to the general shape of the original Navy rear, but is much smaller and many times more effecient."


The picture accompaning the article shows the dovetail cut in the rear flat of the toggle next to where the hump of the rear sight starts. This puts it ahead of the axle hole so that no metal is removed to weaken that area.


UMMMMMM- think I will replace those two sights on that HP and Commander and make me a couple of Luger adjustables.

[Barry Briscoe]

I have a couple of MMC stripped bodies,one has the main windage screw,$12 shipped 1st class if your interested.I can email you a couple of photos.


Thanks! Barry