Clark Our Own~

cirelaw · 12-30-2017, 06:00 PM

Our own Test History~http://testluger.com/?page_id=2

cirelaw · 12-30-2017, 06:09 PM

Another Section! http://testluger.com/?p=40

cirelaw · 12-30-2017, 06:18 PM

Next~ http://testluger.com/?p=40

cirelaw · 12-30-2017, 06:30 PM

1913 Bannerman Catalog ~ http://www.landofborchardt.com/1913fb_catalog.html#

cirelaw · 12-30-2017, 11:43 PM

We certainly have the most awesome friends and well meaning critics~ Eric~

mrerick · 12-31-2017, 11:32 AM

From his Wordpress site, it's clear that Clark has spent a fair amount of time researching original documents relating to the US Test Lugers in US archives.

When discussing the history of Lugers there is nothing like the original documents to settle disagreement over the actual facts.

This US Test site is a wonderful resource.

Marc

sheepherder · 12-31-2017, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

This US Test site is a wonderful resource.

Yes. It shows the two .45 Lugers; one with the 60º grip and the other with the 55º grip. I remember seeing a thread comparing them, but I don't recall why there were two different gripframe angles. Were they two different orders??? It mentions officers testing them...Testing together? Or different times/orders???

I guess I'll actually have to get up off my fat ass and read the articles.

Ron Wood · 01-01-2018, 12:55 AM

As far as we know there was only one .45 Luger produced with the 55-degree grip angle and it was the one actually used in the test and probably destroyed or discarded after the test. The two known surviving examples with the 60-degree grip angle, most likely were made to more closely resemble grip angle of the Colt and other .45 trial entrants and probably were created in anticipation of a follow-on test or purchase contract. They were not part of the test and probably weren't presented until well after the test...some folks have postulated as late as 1910, but I would think it would have been only a few months after the test perhaps as early as late 1097 - early 1908.
Ron

sheepherder · 01-01-2018, 01:19 AM

Thanks, Ron!

Knowing that it was you, I found the thread it was in - Some guy even measured the grip angle of the Riger .22 auto.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=21855

BTW: Clark's [username = Hugo Borchardt] original post announcing this website was -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=34620

DavidJayUden · 01-01-2018, 11:13 AM

Anyone know the grip angle of a P08, a Ruger .22, and a Japanese Nambu?
dju

Ron Wood · 01-01-2018, 11:47 AM

David,
If you follow the link that Richard (sheepherder) posted you will see that the P08 (e.g. "all other Lugers") is stated to be 55 degrees and Richard posted an illustration of the Ruger ("Riger"

) as being 60 degrees. I have no idea about a Nambu.
Ron

sheepherder · 01-01-2018, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I have no idea about a Nambu.
Ron

Oh, please! You old fudds think admitting owning a Nambu is like coming out of the closet!

Measuring my T14, I get 65º off the front gripstrap.

DonVoigt · 01-01-2018, 01:34 PM

Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please.

guns3545 · 01-01-2018, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please.

Both the Model 1911 and the Government Model used the same forging and hence both models had the same grip angle.

I have found reference to two numbers: 74 and 75 degrees as Browning had found the 55 degrees of the Luger too extreme,

The 74 or 75 degrees was a compromise as field testing indicated that the 84 degrees of the Model 1909 test prototype caused the impact point to drift lower under rapid fire conditions so in the Model 1910 and the Model 1911 production series, the angle was set at 74/75 degrees..

John

DavidJayUden · 01-01-2018, 02:25 PM

Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please.

I agree, but we should draw the line at Glocks...
dju

Norme · 01-01-2018, 03:09 PM

That's interesting, thank you John.
Norm

sheepherder · 01-01-2018, 03:46 PM

Hmmmm,...Lessee...Yep, I get 74º on a Colt Gov't Model frame...(Measured on the front gripstrap)...

Thanks to John for pointing that out!

Edit: Angle orientation corrected!

Jim Solomon · 01-01-2018, 07:13 PM

If I am understanding the 1911 photo, it would appear that the 74 degrees is actually greater than 90 degrees.

Dick Herman · 01-01-2018, 07:14 PM

Richard,
Not wishing to be picky, but your frame to grip strap obtuse angle should be over 90 degrees. Perhaps the 74 degrees is an acute angle on the flip side of the grip strap line.
Have a very Happy New Year.

sheepherder · 01-01-2018, 07:50 PM

You are both correct; I could not find a right-hand pic online with a white background. The angle is correct (for my Gov't Model) just on the wrong side. It's now corrected.

BTW: FWIW, the pic I had up originally, of an after-market frame being milled, only measured 72 1/2º. I had another one lying nearby; that one was also 72 1/2º. Only my Colt actually measured 74º. The 1928 blueprint I go by did not have a direct degree measurement. I had the Colt broken down for comparison. The print seems genuine, but some of the measurements are very strange. Like, just what fraction in inch or Metric is .110"??? And why would anyone bore a hole 29/64"???

12-30-2017, 06:00 PM	#1
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Clark Our Own~ Our own Test History~http://testluger.com/?page_id=2 Attached Thumbnails

12-30-2017, 06:09 PM	#2
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Another Section! http://testluger.com/?p=40 Attached Thumbnails

12-30-2017, 06:18 PM	#3
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Next~ http://testluger.com/?p=40 Attached Thumbnails

12-30-2017, 06:30 PM	#4
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	1913 Bannerman Catalog ~ http://www.landofborchardt.com/1913fb_catalog.html# Attached Thumbnails

12-31-2017, 11:32 AM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	From his Wordpress site, it's clear that Clark has spent a fair amount of time researching original documents relating to the US Test Lugers in US archives. When discussing the history of Lugers there is nothing like the original documents to settle disagreement over the actual facts. This US Test site is a wonderful resource. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-30-2017, 11:43 PM	#5
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	We certainly have the most awesome friends and well meaning critics~ Eric~

01-01-2018, 12:55 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	As far as we know there was only one .45 Luger produced with the 55-degree grip angle and it was the one actually used in the test and probably destroyed or discarded after the test. The two known surviving examples with the 60-degree grip angle, most likely were made to more closely resemble grip angle of the Colt and other .45 trial entrants and probably were created in anticipation of a follow-on test or purchase contract. They were not part of the test and probably weren't presented until well after the test...some folks have postulated as late as 1910, but I would think it would have been only a few months after the test perhaps as early as late 1097 - early 1908. Ron Attached Thumbnails __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

01-01-2018, 01:19 AM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Thanks, Ron! Knowing that it was you, I found the thread it was in - Some guy even measured the grip angle of the Riger .22 auto. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=21855 BTW: Clark's [username = Hugo Borchardt] original post announcing this website was - http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=34620 __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 01-01-2018 at 01:27 PM.

01-01-2018, 11:13 AM	#10
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Anyone know the grip angle of a P08, a Ruger .22, and a Japanese Nambu? dju

01-01-2018, 11:47 AM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,179 Times in 1,703 Posts	David, If you follow the link that Richard (sheepherder) posted you will see that the P08 (e.g. "all other Lugers") is stated to be 55 degrees and Richard posted an illustration of the Ruger ("Riger" ) as being 60 degrees. I have no idea about a Nambu. Ron __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction Last edited by Ron Wood; 01-01-2018 at 01:56 PM.

01-01-2018, 01:34 PM	#13
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,442 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-01-2018, 02:25 PM	#15
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Someone put the grip angle of the 1911 Govt. Model for completeness, please. I agree, but we should draw the line at Glocks... dju

01-01-2018, 03:09 PM	#16
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	That's interesting, thank you John. Norm

01-01-2018, 03:46 PM	#17
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Hmmmm,...Lessee...Yep, I get 74º on a Colt Gov't Model frame...(Measured on the front gripstrap)... Thanks to John for pointing that out! Edit: Angle orientation corrected! Attached Images __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 01-01-2018 at 07:57 PM.

01-01-2018, 07:13 PM	#18
Jim Solomon Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Georgia Posts: 199 Thanks: 700 Thanked 176 Times in 69 Posts	If I am understanding the 1911 photo, it would appear that the 74 degrees is actually greater than 90 degrees. __________________ Jim Solomon [email protected]

01-01-2018, 07:14 PM	#19
Dick Herman User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 302 Thanks: 496 Thanked 354 Times in 138 Posts	Richard, Not wishing to be picky, but your frame to grip strap obtuse angle should be over 90 degrees. Perhaps the 74 degrees is an acute angle on the flip side of the grip strap line. Have a very Happy New Year. Last edited by Dick Herman; 01-01-2018 at 07:15 PM. Reason: corrected an

01-01-2018, 07:50 PM	#20
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	You are both correct; I could not find a right-hand pic online with a white background. The angle is correct (for my Gov't Model) just on the wrong side. It's now corrected. BTW: FWIW, the pic I had up originally, of an after-market frame being milled, only measured 72 1/2º. I had another one lying nearby; that one was also 72 1/2º. Only my Colt actually measured 74º. The 1928 blueprint I go by did not have a direct degree measurement. I had the Colt broken down for comparison. The print seems genuine, but some of the measurements are very strange. Like, just what fraction in inch or Metric is .110"??? And why would anyone bore a hole 29/64"??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 01-02-2018 at 12:14 AM.

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