Bavarian Unit Mark Lugers

[Pistol]

Anyone ever seen a Bavarian Unit Marked luger with a holdopen? I know normally they don't have one because the Bavarian's did not send them back to get the modification and the the war started.

But if the gun was later pressed into police service or used during WWII, would it get a hold open then?

[Pistol]

And along the same line........could a commercial P08 in serial range 30,000 to 60,000, that has a retrofitted holdopen, be a Bavarian Officers pistol?

I was thinking no holdopen would indicate possible ownership by a Bavarian officer. In turn, a P08 retrofitted with a holdopen would indicate it was an officers from another kingdom.

[George Anderson]

Neither Bavarian nor Wuerttemberger Lugers were retrofitted with hold-opens.

[Pistol]

Thanks....that is what I thought......but what if the gun was used in police service in the 1920s or during WWII? Would they install one then?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Pistol

Thanks....that is what I thought......but what if the gun was used in police service in the 1920s or during WWII? Would they install one then?

I would expect they would not "use" a frame without the hold open.
Too many others to convert , which were easier to upgrade as they already had the hold open.

Erfurt was the only location to add the hold open, by the 1920's the jigs were probably lost or misplaced.

JMHO.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

... add the hold open, by the 1920's the jigs were probably lost or misplaced.

JMHO.

Don,

Really?


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Don,

Really?


Sieger

As I said, "JMHO"; but it is logical that since the Erfurt machinery was shut down and then sent to Simson, and the need for adding the hold open had passed, it is logical to me that the jigs necessary for that operation were "misplaced or lost".

You have another idea, information, or opinion to add?

[Pistol]

Interesting...thanks

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

As I said, "JMHO"; but it is logical that since the Erfurt machinery was shut down and then sent to Simson, and the need for adding the hold open had passed, it is logical to me that the jigs necessary for that operation were "misplaced or lost".

You have another idea, information, or opinion to add?

Don,

Why would Simpson loose anything?

Simpson held the contract for rehabbing the Military Lugers for the Reichswehr. Pistols owned privately by officers may have remained in their possession, but what of those issued to enlisted men?

What specific modifications were needed for Reichwehr service? Would the addition of a hold open been considered a big issue at Simpson, or whatever subcontractor they used?

I bet Vlim will KNOW the answer.


Sieger

[DonVoigt]

My opinion was that the tooling for the addition of the hold open was used in 1913-1914 and not after at Erfurt; perhaps not ever sent to Simson. All pistols "requiring" hold opens had them by 1914.

There is much discussion in one of the books about the addition of the hold open to pistols originally made without it. I'll find the right book and pages - likely in Goertz and Sturgess- and add the reference for those who want to read more.

I know of no special modifications required for Reichsheer service; other than the requirement for shorter barrels to meet IMKK dictat.
Whether adding a hold open was a big deal or not, it would not have been necessary- with thousands of pistols being destroyed- why would anyone choose to upgrade or rework a pistol without a hold open?

Anyone with more info is welcome to chime in.

I found the reference in Goertz and Sturgess "Pistole Parabellum" pp 1099 to 1105, in the red edition, and 1056 to 1066 in the green edition.
Sturgess writes that the installation of the hold open was a "major factory retrofit" requiring milling of the recess, placement of the pivot pin, fitting of the hold open itself, and then function firing of the weapon. It was also decided to add a higher front sight at the time of function firing to correct the higher impact point of the early sight, the effect of the sight change was to reduce the point blank range to 50 m from about 100 m.

[JTD]

Don, I do not think anything was lost or misplaced. The tooling was now in place to mill all new manufacture frames. Rework on frames that needed it just went thru this tooling step when needed. The Weurttenburg or Bavarian lugers were just never returned for the retrofit. Weimar rework pistols were retrofitted with needed upgrades, force matched, and at that point any unit mark would be obliterated, or removed, destroying the link to origins. I have never observed a 1920 marked pistol without a hold open. Just my 2 cents worth, John

[DonVoigt]

John,
I've not seen a 1920 or otherwise Weimar marked police luger without a hold open either.

This is one of those "simple" questions without an answer- we cannot know if a hold open was ever added to a frame without one after 1914. Why would one do it, when 1000's of frames with them were available? I would think it a fatal flaw, just like a crack would have been when selecting frames for re-work. AGAIN JMHO.

I regret ever offering an opinion on the OP's un-knowable question.

[wayne8661]

Originally Posted by George Anderson

Neither Bavarian nor Wuerttemberger Lugers were retrofitted with hold-opens.

I have one example of a 1912 Erfurt that has had a hold open
installed. Its a staff weapon so it could be conceivable that a higher ranked officer would have the upgrade done.

[Pistol]

Wayne,

What is the unit mark on yours? Bavarian?

[wayne8661]

Wurtemberg- XIII Armeekorps

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by wayne8661

I have one example of a 1912 Erfurt that has had a hold open
installed. Its a staff weapon so it could be conceivable that a higher ranked officer would have the upgrade done.

A luger without hold open is a pain in the uh- hands to fiddle with!

[wayne8661]

Here are a couple quick picks of the gun and the holdopen installed

[JTD]

nice pistol Wayne

[George Anderson]

1912 dated Erfurts seem to be some of the best finished of all Erfurts. Even better than DWMs.