"Boosted" into shooter category? - But look further!

[ithacaartist]

"Militarized"?

A perfectly good Alphabet Commercial...well, used to be.

https://www.proxibid.com/DWM-Luger-3...ation/63950365

Does the Erfurt mag dull the shame?

[gunnertwo]

Plus the nearly 20% buyers premium!

No thanks!

G2

[Doubs]

Did you miss the "SU25" stamp on the right receiver? Several examples came up when I searched and each was in the same serial number range of the g suffix code.

The SU25 stamp has nice halo as does the barrel serial number and the digits on the rear toggle link. The only serious question I have about it is the serial number on the front of the frame. There's no halo and the area where the serial number is stamped appears to have been ground some.

The electro penciled numbers are very neat and while I may be wrong, I think there's more to this Luger than someone trying to fool anyone. Check the short thread linked below.

[DonVoigt]

Doubs is on to something, this is not just "boosted"; but likely a rework of some era. JMHO.

[Edward Tinker]

normally I'd attribute this kind of marking to the DDR - it is odd - never seen anything like it. And all of these on-line auctions are higher than most credit cards percents

[Doubs]

I did a little research in my Gortz & Sturgess red books and there is a paragraph addressing the SU markings on page 475.

To summarize, the SU stamp with two digits between 25 & 40 were used by the Spandau repair depot to mark commercial pistols that were converted to military specs by adding numbers in the military style, or had major repairs or were built up from spare parts. The SU stamp is the H. Za. identification and the two digits indicate the year the work was done.

The subject pistol appears to be a legitimate pistol and not boosted.

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Doubs

I did a little research in my Gortz & Sturgess red books and there is a paragraph addressing the SU markings on page 475.

To summarize, the SU stamp with two digits between 25 & 40 were used by the Spandau repair depot to mark commercial pistols that were converted to military specs by adding numbers in the military style, or had major repairs or were built up from spare parts. The SU stamp is the H. Za. identification and the two digits indicate the year the work was done.

The subject pistol appears to be a legitimate pistol and not boosted.

posted listing link clearly states that it is in .30 caliber so it was not converted to any German military specs at Spandau repair Depot -

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

posted listing link clearly states that it is in .30 caliber so it was not converted to any German military specs at Spandau repair Depot -

Please go to page 476 in G&S red books. It clearly shows that .30 caliber Lugers were indeed converted to military specs at Spandau repair depot.

[gunnertwo]

I wonder if the description of caliber is correct? The method of numbering is very well done. Perhaps it is in 9mm?

G2

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Did you miss the "SU25" stamp on the right receiver? Several examples came up when I searched and each was in the same serial number range of the g suffix code.

The SU25 stamp has nice halo as does the barrel serial number and the digits on the rear toggle link. The only serious question I have about it is the serial number on the front of the frame. There's no halo and the area where the serial number is stamped appears to have been ground some.

The electro penciled numbers are very neat and while I may be wrong, I think there's more to this Luger than someone trying to fool anyone. Check the short thread linked below.

Thanks for the link. I did notice the SU stamp, and had a recollection--albeit fuzzy-- that it is legitimate. What threw me was the electro-pencil work in lieu of number stamp. I agree that the numbers were carefully/skillfully executed.

[Doubs]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Thanks for the link. I did notice the SU stamp, and had a recollection--albeit fuzzy-- that it is legitimate. What threw me was the electro-pencil work in lieu of number stamp. I agree that the numbers were carefully/skillfully executed.

Thank you for calling our attention to it. I find it to be a very interesting variation of the alphabet Lugers. By researching it, I also learned new information.

[Eugen]

I never ceased to be amazed at the collective collaborative effort demonstrated on this forum to carefully study Lugers.

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Doubs

Please go to page 476 in G&S red books. It clearly shows that .30 caliber Lugers were indeed converted to military specs at Spandau repair depot.

if converted to German arsenal specs they would be in 9mm + not .30 as is the one in listing - 3 3/4" bbl. ? - the electro pencil marking seem very dubious to me - does not appear to be arsenal quality at all to me -

[jeb111]

I dug into my G&S green volumes and found the same information just different page #’s. Interesting information on an obscure Luger variant. Fun to find a pistol like that posted for sale and then dig up facts found in a small corner of a multiple volume reference book to learn it’s authentic. Good catch Doubs most collectors would have missed that one!
Jim

[spangy]

Originally Posted by schutzen-jager

posted listing link clearly states that it is in .30 caliber so it was not converted to any German military specs at Spandau repair Depot -

The main thrust of Doub's observations has nothing to do with this pistols caliber. It has to do with the addition of 'military' marks in accordance with military specifications.

The 'conversion' is not one of caliber but one of converting a commercial Luger into a military Luger as per military standards.

Myself I do agree that the "electro pencil marking seem very dubious to me - does not appear to be arsenal quality at all to me - " however I have seen this done on Luger's in the past.

It strikes me as odd that the rear toggle is stamped 20 and then the remaining spots are electro-penciled.

Still something 'fishy' with this gun but I like it. The question to me is if this gun was legitimately altered or unscrupulously altered. I can see both possibilities as being true so back to square zero for me.

As for the 3.75" barrel ... Treaty of Versailles mandates that ... After all Su/25 indicates the alteration occurred in 1925.

Thanks Doubs and schutzen-jager ... spirited debate is a good thing.

[Doubs]

This is only my opinion but the electro-pencil work on the subject Luger is better than average. It takes a fair amount of skill to use the electro-pencil and maintain scale. I've used them a few times and by comparison the person who etched that Luger was a Rembrandt.

It would also be interesting to know where the "miliitarized" commercial 30 Lugers were employed. To whom were they issued?

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by spangy

The main thrust of Doub's observations has nothing to do with this pistols caliber. It has to do with the addition of 'military' marks in accordance with military specifications.

The 'conversion' is not one of caliber but one of converting a commercial Luger into a military Luger as per military standards.

Myself I do agree that the "electro pencil marking seem very dubious to me - does not appear to be arsenal quality at all to me - " however I have seen this done on Luger's in the past.

It strikes me as odd that the rear toggle is stamped 20 and then the remaining spots are electro-penciled.

Still something 'fishy' with this gun but I like it. The question to me is if this gun was legitimately altered or unscrupulously altered. I can see both possibilities as being true so back to square zero for me.

As for the 3.75" barrel ... Treaty of Versailles mandates that ... After all Su/25 indicates the alteration occurred in 1925.

Thanks Doubs and schutzen-jager ... spirited debate is a good thing.

the military specs + standards would have been only 9mm for that arsenal + not .30 - iirc the 3 3/4" regulation was mostly ignored with the exception of some new production , my post 1920 Weimer reworks have 4" -

[Edward Tinker]

Except --- there were 30 luger guns used by railroad and other organizations in germany

I knew about the SU - but the inscribed numbers is in no way normal, looks like much later work. Any new numbers at a depot or unit, I have seen were stamped.

[spangy]

Not to mention the Swiss used militarized 30 cal Luger's but yes, I agree Ed, the inscribed numbers is in no way normal and in my mind opens the door to knowledgeable faker's but who knows I was not there and I have seen these carefully inscribed numbers before. It is also possible these numbered Luger's are from the same counterfeiter. Again who knows, Luger's have become a high dollar game and where there's money there is possible deception.

I want to make it perfectly clear that in no way am I counting Doubs theory out, Doubs is one of the most knowledgeable members here and I have learned so much from him here @ the forum. The fact is I am just on a fence with this gun ... I am hoping that Doubs assessment is correct but my spidey senses are tingling. LOL

[schutzen-jager]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Except --- there were 30 luger guns used by railroad and other organizations in germany

I knew about the SU - but the inscribed numbers is in no way normal, looks like much later work. Any new numbers at a depot or unit, I have seen were stamped.

iirc

they were not military organizations at that time + did not require military specification weapons -