Ever hear of an S 25 toggle?

[mirage78]

My father-in-law just inherited it from his brother who bought it back from WWII. I cannot find a S 25 reference in the blue book. It has 325 (I assume the S/N) stamped on everything along with the S 25 on the toggle. There is a small 33 on the top of the gun. On the right side of the gun are some of the graphics shown on this site (the eagle types). I do not have the gun now but will try and verify the graphics. The numbers under the graphics are 6 81 67 67.

Now for the kicker. It is not blue. Looking at it, we assumed it was stainless but that wouldn't fit the time period so it must be nickel, yes?

His brother said he had removed it from a dead German Colonel in 1944. I wish now I had asked his brother where he in Europe he removed it before he passed away.

The gun is a easy 90%+ in my opinion with walnut stocks. It has not been fired in 30 years and really looks sharp. It is not for sale but to know it's history would make it that much more interesting.

Thanks for any help. I have some pictures of it but a Sony digital 8 does not take the clearest pictures for detail.

[Edward Tinker]

Daniel,

Lugers in Chrome or Nickle was almost always done post WW2. A few rumors suggest that a few were done for dignitaries, but no one I have ever talked to believes any of the nickled guns are anything besides post WW2. Some were nickled prior to coming over, and it was extremly the "in" thing to have them shined up once home.

As a nickled Luger, it fits in the "shooter" category and is worth around $350-$500, depending on who wants it. But besides that, it is a cool bring-back gun to keep in the family.

Ed

[mirage78]

Ed, Thanks for the reply. Do you have any ideas what the S 25 may refer to, or is that now nothing of significance? I expect we will take it out and shoot it a few times and then it will mostly just sit in a dark area (unless I get it). I hope it does stay in the family.

[policeluger]

Looks like a very heavily buffed and much re-worked Simson E/6 police gun (note sear safety). Ed is right on about price. In fact $500 may be a bit high.

[mirage78]

This is getting very interesting. Thanks for your help policeluger. Man, I wish I could've asked him some specific questions now, like: Did you have it plated, etc.?

[RockinWR]

* "S" coded Simson.
* The "25" is the last 2 digits of the S/N (325) & not part of the Maker's Code.
* The small 33 on the top of the gun, if it is surmounted by a smaller eagle, is an Inspector's Acceptance Mark similar to the 4 shown in the receiver picture above. In fact, you should find an E/# on every Simson part of this Pre WWII example if the buffing wheel was kind. But, if the "33" is solitary, it may indicate a non matching, replacement part from another pistol.
* The pistol's history makes this of value to you & your kin. However collector's value has been decreased to that mentioned above by the nickle re-finish. I'd enjoy it for what it is, learn from its operation/markings as you are doing, have it checked by a gunsmith familiar with Lugers, and maybe shoot it occasionally on an anniversary (or whatever trips your trigger) if you dare. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Respectfully,
Bob

[mirage78]

Outstanding information! Thanks very much!

[Lugerdoc]

Your Simson & Co. "S" code is a very scarce late variation, probably made in 1933 or 34, just before the German Nazi government "Donated" this Jewish firm's parts and machinery to Kreighoff. TH

[mirage78]

Does that mean that we should be more respectful with it or treat it like a shooter?

As I read the Bluebook, it says the Krieghoff series are prized for their fit and finish. Sounds like this Luger needs to be examined by a professional. Any ideas where it should be taken in the Kansas area?

[Edward Tinker]

Since it has been buffed and nickled, treat her right, but shoot her often,

[Ron Wood]

mirage78

Your Luger is an "S" coded Simson, not an "S" coded Krieghoff. As Lugerdoc indicated, your Luger was created before Krieghoff "acquired" the tooling. There is no need to go through the time and expense for your father-in-law to have this Luger examined by a professional. The Bluebook commentary does not apply to this piece.

Although a scarce variation, its collector value has been removed by being buffed and nickled. It has been properly identifed and evaluated by the members of this forum. It is a family treasure, enjoy it for what it is.

[mirage78]

Thanks Ron for the clarity! I know my father-in-law is disappointed in what I have found out, but I greatly appreciate the help this forum and it's members have provided to identify this piece.

This Luger will continue to be cherished and enjoyed (and maintained).

[policeluger]

78, still when all is said and done, it is a police gun, and depending on who in the Luger collecting industry you listings too, there are from 100 to 300 police Simsons known. Now I do not know how these numbers at arrived at. My guess it is just a guess on the part of full time dealers, who perhaps inventory more guns then the average collector. I can tell you that the only refinished Weimar period gun I own is a Simson ( been collecting Weimar police for years). Complete matching except proper Simson mag. Now I really do not care for refinished guns, I am talking about current work, not pre 1945 police guns. However this gun was offered right, and good clean original Simson's police demands very good money. If your gun is worthy of it, I'm gritting my teeth here, you may want too consider its value should it be restored...man that was hard to say....I had mine apprised by Ralph Shattuck a few weeks ago at 2K, and remember it's restored...there I said it again. There could be some possibility here of a collection grade gun.

[Edward Tinker]

You are right on that Howard, my small Weimar Police collection is missing that Simson and when I asked a collector friend, he said it'd be a bit expensive to get one.

Asleep at the wheel, some how I missed that! {{Daniel, I also collect Weimar Police and just missed that it was one!!}}

Ed

[policeluger]

you have much too learn grasshopper.....have a good one Ed.

[mirage78]

I just spent 30 minutes on the phone with my father-in-law explaining what has been discussed on this thread. It has been quite a challenge for me and I am sure, for him as well.

He mentioned taking it to the local gun guy to have him look at it. I may have been a bit overbearing, but I strongly discouraged that sort of action and told him that the Luger should only be taken to people that have a clue about Lugers and have a history of dealing with them. I plan on printing out this thread for him to read so that he'll know I'm not blowing smoke.

The gun's history continues to be a rewarding one. Thanks guys!

[Ron Wood]

If he takes it to a local gun guy, how much do you want to bet he will be told that some German officers were issued nickle plated Lugers? Happens almost every time. That is a favorite story of folks who know nothing about Lugers but like to pretend they do.

You probably should let your father-in-law talk to the local "expert", the results might be amusing, and sure as shootin' if he hears what he likes, that is what he is going to believe.

Anyway,it is a neat gun and, as policeluger grudgingly suggested, probably worthy of restoration.

[BlindJim]

A lot of guns were nickled in the early postwar period to cut down on maintainance. Cleaning meant other guys in your barracks knew you had a gun. Thus, you war trophy was put a risk while you werent in the barracks. My own father had a gun nickled and then hid in the bottom of his duffle bag to keep it safe from prying eyes and nimble fingers.

I also know of a fellow that nickled pieces on his luger that began to rust - he worked at the Phila Navy yard and was able to plate small parts at Govt expense!

[mirage78]

Thanks for the info BlindJim. I have printed this thread out for him and I'll find out what happened if he took it to his local "firearm expert".

[mirage78]

He decided that he would not take it to the local firearm expert. The information you guys provided convinced him that he should only deal with people who KNOW Lugers.

I was impressed when he said that. Thanks to all who helped out.