Test Luger on GB

[Ron Wood]

I immediately acknowledged that the gun is not factory original, it is obvious to the most casual observer that it is a refinish/restoration. But I am sorry gentlemen, to label the chamber marking as specious from that out of focus, glare distorted photo that was rotated approx. 45-degrees clockwise (which introduces additional distortion in a poor photo) to post is pointless (I had a stronger word in mind but I truly do not want to stir up ill feelings). There are times that a fake can be deduced from an Internet photo, I have done it myself and so has Vern. But you have to have at least the resolution of the photo on the right before you can even begin to do a proper assessment.

[LugerVern]

Both Dwight & Ron are correct.

Please note, I did not say the gun was a fake. I too think it is a a very nice restoration.

Now to some a restoration is a fake. So lets not split this too finely.

The reason I looked at the crest was that knowing a restoration had taken place the crest is one of the best places to look. The details are almost always messed up to some degree in the restoration process.

It is a poor picture however and what we see and what we have may not be the same.

Vern

[PhilOhio]

I think we are using different terms to describe the same thing, non-originality. Significance lies only in how a seller represents his offering.

The last few months, I've done quite a lot of Internet Luger shopping. I've studied hundreds and hundreds of photos, good and bad, of purportedly "rare" examples with price tags of thousands of dollars.

I see common threads running through so many of the ads for Lugers which I consider highly questionable, as to authenticity and/or originality. First, the seller frequently makes a special point of saying he doesn't know much about Lugers. Then he makes detailed claims which, to me, suggest otherwise. Second, photographs tend to be underlighted, overlighted, or slightly out of focus. Third, provenance is often fiddled, fudged, indirectly implied, and fine tuned in such a way as to lead the reader to believe or assume something, but to evade responsibility for the truthfulness of it. You might call it the Bill Clinton approach to Luger marketing.

Ron, I think my reference to the talents of a skillful forger may have been interpreted as referring to what this seal is. I don't know that that is the case, but I am also not convinced that it isn't. The quality of the seal is simply too far off the mark. And my opinion is not related to poor photographic quality or lighting. The photo may not be up to professional standards, but it is quite sufficient to make sound judgments about seal detail; I believe it was not originally stamped that way, whether or not the Germans used different or replacement seals at different times. They did not likely use second or third rate engravers on important projects showcasing German quality abroad. And what we see in the seal picture looks to me like either engraving made to look like a seal, or poor quality re-engraving of a seal stamping. Put another way, I don't think that what we see in the picture is the result of a stamp striking the receiver bridge.

If it is the restoration of a genuine, original seal stamping, it was not a first rate job. If it was a wholecloth creation...more credit is due to he who created it, but an original stamping it is not. Or so I believe.

I own an original first production run Automag pistol, on which some of the chemically etched factory markings were completely worn away. I wanted them replaced with deep and permanent engraved markings, similar to stampings, which never appeared on these pistols. I sent the receiver to a man who knew how to do that. He did a wonderful job, with clarity and precision. This Luger seal, whatever its history, cannot compare to the fine work my engraver did.

I won't live long enough to accumulate the Luger expertise of some of you on this board, and I respect that, but I've also been collecting, shooting, and studying firearms markings for more than half a century. It's fascinating. So it doesn't take me, or any of us, I imagine, very long to separate originality from the opposite, even without the benefit of a hands-on examination.

And I'm a guy who doesn't frown upon quality restoration work or creativity. I admire the craftsmanship and motivation, and will buy it, as long as everything is up front and honestly represented. I like crisp lines and good bluing or straw color, rather than expensive rust. And several close friends of mine would hotly disagree. So happily, often we don't compete as buyers.

Anyway, it's about fun and continuing education, and I'm getting both here.

[Mike B]

That discussion of the various Eagles that Dwight was referring to is titled "Not all Eagles are created equal". If you put that title in search, you will find it.

Mike

[DavidJayUden]

Phil:
Very eloquently put.
DJU

[PhilOhio]

Thanks David. I hope I don't go too far in expressing myself sometimes, but this stuff really fascinates me, and I enjoy discussing or debating the nuances and mysteries with other people who feel the same way. We are so widely scattered that it could never happen, except for the Internet. And there is no chance we are all going to perceive things the same way in every instance. So it takes some mutual toleration and tact.

I know that I learn a lot, constantly, when people on the net call to my attention something that was right in front of me for years, but I never saw it; because there was nobody else nearby with the same narrow interest, who had caught something or other, and could call it to my attention.

A reference book on Lugers, or anything else, is a body of knowledge which is set in concrete (for awhile) when it goes to the publisher. But on the net, in a forum like this, that database is constantly growing and changing, with the input and critiques coming from a diverse worldwide knowledge base.

Every time I scan a site like this, I marvel over and appreciate this. Younger people, who grow up on the Net, will never see it the same way. The downside is that so much of it is perishable, unless somebody makes a great effort to sift, sort, and save some of it. Few have the time or inclination.